The Latin-America thread

[Siren]

Interesting discussion. I had never imagined a Latinamerican Union sort of thing.
I wish i could contribute more in this thread, but all i can do is read.

 

[Kovenant84]

A couple of things I think I'll interject at this point, open to any of the Latin Americans, and just out of my own curiosity.

Firstly, I went to a Jesuit high school. In my experience, they're one of the more liberal branches of the Catholic Church nowadays. Unfortunately, I'm not up on my Jesuit history, so I'm not sure about how they were viewed back when said rebellions would have occurred. How are they viewed today down there?

And secondly, what are your views on the abortion legislation that has been passed in Mexico City, in terms of how it seems to be polarizing the populace as either pro-government or pro-church?

~kov.

 

[QRV]

Kurt: Forgive my ignorance, but what do the dollar and silver have to do with the possibility or impossibility of a Latinamerican Union?

Danny+Kurt (about dissention and tense politics between latinamerican countries): As far as i know, in order for a country to enter the European Union it has to perform certain actions (which include improving its way of life and may include things like helping the rest of Europe to capture some political criminal who was born in that country) and it can't be at war with anybody (of course, there's no problem when a country that's already in the EU goes to war with someone who isn't, bah, that's bullshit). So a Latinamerican Union could rely on the same principle: you can't be at war or have any political conflicts with another country in Latin-America, and you have to improve your way of life to something similar to the "least-poor" countries in Latin-America (i wouldn't know who those are, though Brazil and Mexico come to mind as probable examples). It'll never be another EU, granted, but at least Latin-America would be greatly-benefitted and would become a stronger presence than it currently is. And perhaps the latinamerican living conditions generally would improve. But i don't know much about the subject, so i'd appreciate some bashing and contradicting so that i can learn more.

Well, I'm no economist nor anything, but considering that most of Latin America is already owned by a bunch of corporate interests and that it is globalized to the extreme... well, any sort of effort to create a coalition would completely fail in behalf of that, just like ALCA did. A coalition would imply creating protectionist policies, and we're totally unprepared for that. Our economies are still very dependent. And we haven't even got a well-established identity, not even as countries, much less as a continent.

However, everything points toward a mayor depression in the United States soon (bigger and more devastating even than the one in '28). I don't know exactly what effect would that cause in LA, the interests might either retreat from here or become stronger than ever. I know something for sure: silver is being consumed at an accelerated rate and it won't be stopped. It might even top the prices of gold in the near future. Mexico and Argentina are some of the top silver producers in the world, so what do you think will happen? Will they use that to boost up their economies or will they be stripped off of their resources by foreign industries, just as it's always been?

I'm not particularly optimistic about it, really.

 

[Magrathean]

afz+Kurt: True; i guess we would need to change the governments of all the countries in LA before even thinking about a LAU.

Kurt: I hadn't thought about an economic depression in USA, but now that you bring it up it does seem possible and even probable. Now, i am not and will never want to be big on economy, but i do believe that such a scenario would/will have worse consequences on LA than on USA itself. I doubt LA will be smart/fast/productive-enough to exploit the event and boost its industries; as i see it, it will all start going down the moment USA takes its eyes off LA for lack of resources to exploit it. After that, my guess is that either Europe will turn its eyes on LA or the world will forget about America as a whole (except maybe for Canada) because of the extreme poverty it (particularly LA) will have fallen into. And when Mexico and Argentina run out of silver it'll be even-worse for them. Edit: forgot to thank you for explaining to me what the dollar and silver have to do with LA.

Europe is definitely the future. It's doing --not in the best way or anything close to it, but at least it's doing it-- what the whole world should have done ages ago.

Interesting discussion indeed.

 

[Thanatos]

Well, since most people around here IMHO don't know a thing of how Latin-America really is, I decided to create this thread .

So, feel free to post all the questions, comments and doubts you may have, and me and my Latin-America counterparts ( ) will try to answer them all.

@Siren: WTF is dog music? OMG ¡perreo!

Perreo = Literally "to dog." Around these parts it is the delibarate action to rub your genitals and other parts (such as your derriere) on others' people body. For example, with regetón you'll usually find the girl bended over with her head to the back (not towards the guy/gal) rubbing her front parts (not her boobs though, that happens when they're drunk) on the guys penis.

And so we have one of the reasons why you have a lot of 14 year old pregnant girls, because the guy just couldn't hold it and the girl was drunk so "What the heck I might as well take advantage."
I'm afraid dog music might be a slight variation of regetón uke: .

Run for your lives!!! *runs away for his life* *puts DT* * *

Ewww, I'm glad none of this crap is present in my part of Latin America

And about a Latin American union, it's impossible because peruvians are ugly people

 

[afz902k]

About the Abortion thing: Well, at least between the people I gather with, It has been a non-issue. I'm pretty sure many pro-life and many pro-choice people are talking about it.

Currently, Mexico City allows abortions in the cases of birth defects, undesired artificial insemination, strong economic reasons (when the woman already has three children), life danger due to the pregnancy, and rape.

The laws that are being passed are meant to remove these restrictions only in the first 3 months of pregnancy.

Now, by the end of the third month of pregnancy, a baby is fully formed. He/She is about 4 inches long and weighs about 1 ounce. There have been many studies to find out at what point of its development a fetus can start feeling pain. The results have showed that it is at about 24 weeks, while some other scientists claim that they never really feel pain because they can't yet understand or process what pain is (This latter statement is probably bullshit).

Now, some people may say that since at 3 months the baby is fully formed, it is a horrible thing to kill it, no matter what the circumstances are. I agree to a certain degree. Maybe the threshold should be 2 months instead.

In the end, I'd say my opinion about it being 3 at months is: Ok, whatever. I might sound as a cold bastard, but I do not really care. If the limit was at a higher stage of development maybe I would care.

Now, the church is using its resources to manipulate the people into being against the government once again. Just some days ago all politicians that voted "yes" to the ever-controversial abortion law, were excommunicated. Then the church said: Oh no! Excommunication is such an awful word! No, no; they are not "excommunicated", they are just forbidden to take part in communion, which is obviously not the same thing.

So I'm pro-government on this one, and not because I hate life, but because:
a) It's not that bad of a law, it could really be labeled as "evil" if it made abortion legal at higher development stages.
b) The church is 'cheating'.

 

[QRV]

Europe is definitely the future. It's doing --not in the best way or anything close to it, but at least it's doing it-- what the whole world should have done ages ago.

I have my doubts about this. A lot of countries are still having severe problems dealing with the euros (like Italy, or so I've been told), and other countries, like Germany, depend of the productivity of a tiny minority of people. Worse, the euro isn't backed up by anything. Like the dollar, it's just paper. Besides, the European identity is rather confused right now.

I'd wish the European Union was something to follow, but what I've heard is it's very volatile. Also, I'd think better of it had it done something about its Eastern part.

Maybe our European friends here could bring a light about this. hyena, you're quite versed on economics, aren't you?

 

[GONE Ridin' Hood]

Afz:
Don't know form where the abortion stuff came from, but wel wahtever .

I am actually an avid supporter of abortion, I believe every women should have the right to decide to abort a child or not . As a matter of fact every time I can I give lectures in me Uni on why abortion should be legalized.

The problem IMO is that people think that if abortion becomes legal other people will force you to abort your son/daughter/alien/clown p ). That is not true. What is true is that women should have the right to decide if they want to have the baby.

I imagine how different the world would be if abortions were legal; iMO the worl would be a much better place.

I mean, if a 12 year old child is raped and gets pregnant, do you think she should have her child? Add to that the possibility of being poor, the kid doesn't study, she goes to the streets to ask for me to buy food or alcohol. And she is now pregnant .

So what will be the obvious thing to do?

Go to an illegal abortion clinic, have a guy stick some knife in your vagina and have it damaged for life, and also get raped by the same guy.

The Netherlands is IMO how every country should be, at least with pot and abortion. Canada should be the nest to do that .

 

[afz902k]

LBRH: I brought it up because Kov asked about it.

 

[Taliesin]

other countries, like Germany, depend of the productivity of a tiny minority of people. Worse, the euro isn't backed up by anything. Like the dollar, it's just paper. Besides, the European identity is rather confused right now.

You mean machine engineering and autmobiles? Germany might be one of the world leaders in that field, but as a country, we're not that dependant on it. I think Germany's economy is pretty healthily varied.
Also, I think Europe's identity is on a good path. It's true that in some countries, fears of Europe are being exploited, like in France where things like "All our problems stem from the EU, if you vote for me, I'll see France gets a different treatment and things will be fine" have actually come up as serious points.
I think it's the same thing with everything new / everything people dont know, hundred years ago, people thought the newly invented trains rushing past their fields would make their cows go crazy, now people believe that cell phone poles make them get cancer, or that the money they pay their bills with actually threates their identity.
I think Europe is on a path to be stronger than ever.. but we'll see

 

[QRV]

It's much more more than just machine engineering. Not that I pretend to know more about your country than you do, and I don't have the hard data, but I'm sure if you look around you'll find the economy of Germany revolves around a few hundred people.

Money doesn't threaten identity, but it's clear the euro isn't helping to put all of Europe together. Some countries might be better off without it, England as the leading example. And when has Europe been together anyway? Each country has like a hundred dialects and interregional conflicts. History doesn't help to put the continent together; the cultures are just too different. I put the little attention Eastern Europe has been given as the clearest (and most extreme) example of this utter division.

 

[Child of Time]

...but I'm sure if you look around you'll find the economy of Germany revolves around a few hundred people.

I would like you to explain what you mean with this. Do you mean that Germany's economy depends solely on the most influential corporate leaders? In a country with 80 million inhabitants? If this is what you mean, would any other country in the world differ from Germany in this aspect (assuming that there is a certain share of the population in every country that "the economy revolves around")?

 

[Taliesin]

I'm sure if you look around you'll find the economy of Germany revolves around a few hundred people.

Well, every country has leaders and every country has very powerful industrialists, whose opinions and decisions have a large impact on the country, but I dont see how that is any different in the rest of the world. Im not really sure what you're getting at, Germany has very low corruption, free media and high transparency.

England would be better off without the euro, yea. But then again, they could have just joined the monetary union and maybe all their automobile industry wouldnt have died. I have a few friends in Liverpool and we talk about politics as well sometimes and I have to say, their views are a bit weird sometimes. When it comes to Europe, they are terribly afraid of "losing their identity", through the Euro for example. I think the german Mark was one of the strongest symbolic currencies there was, with it standing for the rebuilt Germany and the recovered industry after the war and all, but except for those claiming that "everything is more expensive now!", people have taken the Euro really well.

 

[afz902k]

Also some swedes are afraid of losing their identity because the euros won't have the image of their king, I think. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

 

[Dark_Silence]

Also some swedes are afraid of losing their identity because the euros won't have the image of their king, I think. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

I dont know if this is true.
But actually each country can choose what is "printed" on one side of the coins. Bills are all the same though. In Belgium, an image of the king is "printed" on the coins.

 

[Child of Time]

Also some swedes are afraid of losing their identity because the euros won't have the image of their king, I think. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

I'd say you're wrong. One side of the euro coins are national, so I guess we could decide to put our dyslectic head of state on those anyway. And as he even is in the papers every other day, it's not like people won't have the opportunity to see him if our coins would be replaced.

I think the reason Swedes are reluctant towards the euro is that the EU never have been very popular around here, and people wants to keep the exit clear, in case there would be the slightest possibility to actually leave the union.

King of Sweden (not a joke)

 

[afz902k]

Oh; well, a friend told me, but he might just be one paranoid abba-loving meatball eater...

 

[Magrathean]

Kurt:

Of course it has problems. That's why i mentioned that it's not doing it in the best way possible. But i believe that the whole world should be united, that drawing lines on maps and inventing wars against the people on the other side of a line is stupid. I don't believe we'll ever make contact with aliens, but how can we even have the balls to try if we haven't even consolidated ourselves as a single people? How can we pursue the colonization of other planets if that's only going to lead to wars extending to other parts of the solar system? And so i see the European Union as a kind of (imperfect, no doubt about that) beginning, as an example to follow (and to learn from, to improve upon).

Concerning its eastern part, i know that the EU is being hypocritical and stupid. Sure, Romania and Bulgaria or Hungary or whoever it was recently joined, but what about Croatia? Croatia can't join until it resolves any political conflicts it has, namely the dispute of a small coastal region against Slovenia, who claims it even-though it's belonged to Croatia forever. Well, if a country isn't allowed to be in the European Union if it has political conflicts then why isn't a country that's already in it kicked out until it resolves them as well? Now, i'm not sure what the official position of the EU is on this particular matter, but i'm inclined to believe that they support Slovenia.

 

[QRV]

I would like you to explain what you mean with this. Do you mean that Germany's economy depends solely on the most influential corporate leaders? In a country with 80 million inhabitants? If this is what you mean, would any other country in the world differ from Germany in this aspect (assuming that there is a certain share of the population in every country that "the economy revolves around")?

Precisely my point. It happens everywhere, it's a flawed system that could be very devastating when it does reach a peak. Third world countries do depend on foreign corporations, however, if those corporations collapse or occurs a big crisis, not much would change there; they'd just have some more disemployment, and everybody's used to that. Poor laws and corruption in a way serve as defense mechanisms for this: in such a case (just to put an example), many small enterprises and individuals can evade taxes and fight to make a living in illegal but tolerated ways. It's a vicious and nasty circle, but it helps on those cases.

But imagine a big event on a First world country with a flamboyant economy and really firm laws, like Germany. Many people make a very decent living out of really small jobs. If a devaluation occurs and inversion weakens, not only a few would be left without jobs; those who stayed with the jobs would be earning much less than they used to, and social security and other forms of government help won't be able to make up for them. They're not used to that, so also try to imagine the psychological effect. (That's what going to happen in the US, by the way: big war psychosis thing, even bigger than it is now).

Well, every country has leaders and every country has very powerful industrialists, whose opinions and decisions have a large impact on the country, but I dont see how that is any different in the rest of the world. Im not really sure what you're getting at, Germany has very low corruption, free media and high transparency.

England would be better off without the euro, yea. But then again, they could have just joined the monetary union and maybe all their automobile industry wouldnt have died. I have a few friends in Liverpool and we talk about politics as well sometimes and I have to say, their views are a bit weird sometimes. When it comes to Europe, they are terribly afraid of "losing their identity", through the Euro for example. I think the german Mark was one of the strongest symbolic currencies there was, with it standing for the rebuilt Germany and the recovered industry after the war and all, but except for those claiming that "everything is more expensive now!", people have taken the Euro really well.

I agree, Germany has achieved much in matters of law and corruption. You guys have some of the best protectionist and even ecological laws that can be found. But you see what could happen in case a big crisis. Euro certainly has its pros, but I believe it being just paper could be simply catastrophic. It doesn't have a backup in gold or any other metal (couldn't have and won't have), and given a world crisis, all of Europe would resent it, no matter if some countries were able to push their way up through their own industries. They all knew it was a big risk, but they took it.

Kurt:

Of course it has problems. That's why i mentioned that it's not doing it in the best way possible. But i believe that the whole world should be united, that drawing lines on maps and inventing wars against the people on the other side of a line is stupid. I don't believe we'll ever make contact with aliens, but how can we even have the balls to try if we haven't even consolidated ourselves as a single people? How can we pursue the colonization of other planets if that's only going to lead to wars extending to other parts of the solar system? And so i see the European Union as a kind of (imperfect, no doubt about that) beginning, as an example to follow (and to learn from, to improve upon).

Concerning its eastern part, i know that the EU is being hypocritical and stupid. Sure, Romania and Bulgaria or Hungary or whoever it was recently joined, but what about Croatia? Croatia can't join until it resolves any political conflicts it has, namely the dispute of a small coastal region against Slovenia, who claims it even-though it's belonged to Croatia forever. Well, if a country isn't allowed to be in the European Union if it has political conflicts then why isn't a country that's already in it kicked out until it resolves them as well? Now, i'm not sure what the official position of the EU is on this particular matter, but i'm inclined to believe that they support Slovenia.

I totally agree with you, right now we need more conscience of both our national and global identities. But I think it's a bit idilic to think of it right now, since the actual systems and world events won't allow it. Now I sincerely hope Europe has the balls to do things right once the big crisis comes, because we won't have a better beacon in all of Western civilization.

 

[Magrathean]

I totally agree with you, right now we need more conscience of both our national and global identities. But I think it's a bit idilic to think of it right now, since the actual systems and world events won't allow it. Now I sincerely hope Europe has the balls to do things right once the big crisis comes, because we won't have a better beacon in all of Western civilization.

Well, isn't Japan (and, to some extent, South Korea) becoming more and more like western civilization? I know they're basically minding their own business and growing almost-silently, but wouldn't the fall of USA be an ideal scenario for them to finally come out of the shadows and become the "other" superpower? If Europe does things right, we'd have two main superpowers, which would prevent something like what happened with USA (a single uncontested and unstoppable country having all the power in the world and doing whatever it wants about everything); if Europe does things wrong, Japan would become the "new USA", no?

Edit: And, considering that Japan is just across the puddle from America, wouldn't it be extremely-easy for Japan to start looking at Latin-America with greedy eyes and start investing here?