The Latin-America thread

[hyena]

I believe every women has the right to choose if they should have a baby or not. Just put yourself in that postion Claudia. What if you got raped by, say, a Colombian. Then you find out that you're pregnant, what would you do? Oh you'll certainly keep him because it's the lord's decision that you were raped and got the baby. And judging for how you boast about the size of the aprtment and stuff, you could perfectly support the baby.

If a Colombian or any other man raped me, I probably would be devastated. If I got pregnant, I probably would be equally devastated, mainly because everything I know about the Colombian is that he is a rapist, and should certain tendencies be genetically engrained my son would have a probability of becoming a rapist in turn. But yes, I would keep the child, because after all I would have a chance to raise him in such a way that he does not become a rapist, but a decent, loving human being. I wouldn't see how throwing him away because his father was a criminal makes sense: talk about sins of the fathers! Of course you're right in saying that having money helps; I would still have problems with working hours etc, but I would have them all the same if the child was the product of a regular marriage.

Note - I would have a different opinion if the raped woman was not me but, say, a teenager. I see how having a baby at 14 could be very bad for both the woman and the baby. Even in that case, I would recommend giving the baby up for adoption, not abortion.

The only case in which I really, really would be in doubt would be if I knew that the little guy has spina bifida or equally terrible illness. But then again this is just fear speaking. I didn't kill my father when he was eaten from inside by his tumor.

Oh, and I don't buy into "the Lord's decision" etc; if the Colombian decides to rape me, it's his decision, not God's. As much as if he decides not to rape me. I don't know how you connect my views with such a concept of complete pre-determination and necessity of actions, a concept which is absent from Western religions in general.

 

[rahvin]

I believe every women has the right to choose if they should have a baby or not. Just put yourself in that postion Claudia. What if you got raped by, say, a Colombian. Then you find out that you're pregnant, what would you do? Oh you'll certainly keep him because it's the lord's decision that you were raped and got the baby. And judging for how you boast about the size of the aprtment and stuff, you could perfectly support the baby.

It's all good and fair to give everyone the right to choose, but when someone decides not to exercise that right, what's it to you? That nobody forces a woman to keep the baby doesn't mean she's to be forced not to. Also, there are solutions such as giving the baby to adoption that can peacefully co-exist with abortion to accomodate the ideas of those who don't want to terminate a life.

Besides, despite your claim that social rights should be of the highest importance, you're convinced that, concerning babies:

but damn there has to be more control!

Is the right to choose only sacred when it protects stuff you believe in?

 

[afz902k]

Here, abortion is not mandatory, it's just allowed if certain conditions are met.

However, If you have 8 kids already, you were victimized by a sex offender, your un-born child clearly has deformities, and the pregnancy is a risk for your life, you can still choose to give birth. That's why it's your choice.

If you are a religious person, and your religion is against abortion, then it should be your choice not to abort. If you're just in a huge problem because of unwanted pregnancy, you should have options.

I think it's very different to kill an unborn person and a toddler, a one-year-old has a developed enough brain to feel pain and is developing emotions as well, at one year of age, a person is quite aware of the world, and the people that care about that person.

A fetus younger than 3 months is arguably unable to feel pain or emotions.

Now, let's get religious: According to the new precepts of the catholic church, an unborn child that has been aborted should be going straight to heaven, which is indeed a better place than the ghetto; I'd say that fetus is being given a free ticket to eternal bliss!

 

[metal devi]

Just wanted to mention that I recently went to El Salvador in Central America. Very interesting country...but really the backyard of the US.

And "music wise":there was reggaeton in every corner of the cities but I did spot some wallpapers advertising metal gigs...

 

[Misanthrope]

I disagree with the previous poster about the NAFTA agreement: While there has been worst poverty levels in the past the agreement has had nefarious consequences for Mexico in the last two decades. You need only to look at how the neoliberalistic agenda in Mexico has produced greater and greater injustices and disparities ( No other country in the world can claim to have the 2nd soon-to-be the 1st richest man in the world and still have over 60 million people in poverty ) to the point that even stereotypical petit-bourgeoisie its disappearing from the country: Most professional level jobs are disappearing and middle class people are forced into poverty and "outsourcing" jobs working for transnational companies who pay as low as 1/10th of what the same employee makes in the united states.

Not only that but in the last 7 years alone there has been over a million people illegally crossing the border to the united states alone and I can tell you from first hand experience that quite a bit of us are making it as far away as Canada to work, of course illegally, on backbreaking jobs like construction.

Does that looks like a success for the NAFTA agreement? What about the increase in the corn prices this year, reaching critical levels and the goverment looking to make things WORST by removing the restrictions to import US corn early ( supposed to be in effect in 2008 but they were pushing to activate that early by artificially manipulating the corn prices intentionally )

And I havent even got into the FOBAPROA fraud and the natural gas price explosion ( over 400% inflation explosion after the spanish private industry took it over, FOR A GAS PRODUCING COUNTRY ). In fact the only way it is sustained is by blatant and admitted electoral fraud( by the maximum electoral authority, TRIFE or Federal Electoral Tribunal ) and US interventionism in the elections ( Amigos de Fox is still refusing to show its funding cause I bet you any amount its directly tied to US CIA offshots like National Endowment for Democracy, International Republican Institute and so on ) or even the proven links like Hildebrando, in charge of the software to count the votes, ( conveniently run by the Current "President"'s brother in law, talk about partiality ) buying software to the same company that caused the Bush electoral fraud scandal in Florida.

And for those of you mocking a Latin America union there IS one strong proposal right now coming out of Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela: The ALBA agreement ( Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas ) in which many latin american countries are already putting resources togheter with institutions like Banco del Sur ( south bank ) soon to be established that actually tie economies together with a monetary fund and loans specifically designed to social programs, as well as non-commercial base trade focusing on strengthening countries and reverse social inequities ( Like Cuba trading doctors for oil with Venezuela which in turn uses said doctors for things like Mision Barrio Adentro in atempting to honor their socialist-oriented constitution and provide free health care to marginalized poor neighborhoods )

Things are happening quite fast in Latin America, is not for nothing that the CIA attempted to stage a failed Coup D'etat against Hugo Chavez in 2002 by directly financing Venezuela Political Parties and media ( look up the book "The Chavez Code" by Eva Golinger where she actually bases all this information on declassified and partially declassified documents obtained by the freedom on information act to uncover the US interventionist role ). The US knows that unlike Cuba they cannot hope to isolate Venezuela because of the huge interest in their vast oil reserves ( Venezuela is the single country with the most oil reserves in the world ) and its open support to Cuba which might finally end the US imposed Blockade when Banco del Sur is implemented and Cuba shows the world what Socialism is capable of when its not under direct attack from imperialist countries.

As a last comment Fiction is probably the greatest DT album since Haven

 

[Misanthrope]

Just wanted to mention that I recently went to El Salvador in Central America. Very interesting country...but really the backyard of the US.

And "music wise":there was reggaeton in every corner of the cities but I did spot some wallpapers advertising metal gigs...

El Salvador is under a lot of problems right now. I was in contact with some people from the FMNL when in Vancouver and they told me they are pulling off outrageous shit like allowing virtually any American Citizen to have diplomatic immunity and gun permits while in the country.

 

[Misanthrope]

I wouldn't see how throwing him away because his father was a criminal makes sense

I don't see how you can impose your own opinion to another mother that might be going through similar situations and feel different.

That is the whole Pro Choice argument in a nutshell, you can do whatever you want as you should but you have no business in telling other people what to do based mainly on religious believes whenever or not their share said believes. That is an act of oppression and as a women you should be concerned about women being oppressed by male priests and male religious fundamentalists which are the main pro-life policy enforcers anyway, No self respecting feminist would ever be pro-life.

 

[hyena]

@misanthrope: well, i see where you are coming from, but i have serious troubles accepting the argument according to which life begins only when you are outside the womb. so it is really hard for me to accept the idea of abortion without jointly accepting homicide in a broader sense. i do understand that in some cases abortion might be understandable (for example for teenagers etc), as much as i understand that in some cases homicide might be understandable (war, self-defense etc), but i still do nøt (i do not have apostrophes on this keyboard so i cannot use contractions - will have to make up for it with original ortography) think that it should be commonly available without specific justification.

 

[afz902k]

Why are crimes regarded as such and punished? Because otherwise we would live in chaos and anarchy.

Now, you could argue abortion is Murder, but just as with self-defense, it is justified under the right circumstances.

Hyena, you could look at it this way: "God knew some of us would do horrible things, which he does not endorse; however, he didn't just deny people the right to choose. Instead he forged eternal torment for them upon death."

So let God judge them, or forgive them if he will. I don't see why you should be in favor of barring free will unless the crimes that are being committed are unjustified (or badly justified).

After all, God didn't bar free will, and he actually could.

*I don't really belive in God as any Christian churches (except probably the Gnostics) advertise Him, I just used such terms to get my point across.

___________________________________________________

Now, about Mexico: misanthrope you are mostly right, but you're not looking at the big picture. I can tell you the situation is not really as bad as you describe it, but it is bad and it is worse than, say, 10 years ago.

Mexico should understand that importing renewable products that can be produced here is just not a very smart thing to do (that includes the majority of goods that come from agriculture).
Though, a sector that has taken advantage of the free trade agreement is the industrial one, which is quite linked to what I do now (especialized technical support for mostly big companies). I'd say it's healthy and steady (apart from some individual cases, such as the Honda facility near my City which is scheduled to close its doors soon).

About the frauds and corruption I couldn't agree more, this is one filthy dump.

About the wages, these we have in Mexico are probably 1/12 of those in the united states, but don't forget that living here is also way cheaper than living in the states (besides clothes and electronic equipment).

Another thing that has been improved lately is interest rates, I don't know if this will have a terrible effect later - it might. For now though, a lot more people are able to get a loan for a house now than they could 5 to 10 years ago, and with fixed interest rates too. It is quite a good time to acquire a credit for a house or a car, and this is proven by the huge amount of families that are now slowly paying for their own house instead of renting some place, which mostly helps the middle-class. I certainly don't see middle class getting poorer and poorer at an alarming rate.

Take for example this: my own mother just got a new car, interest rate = 3% YEARLY.

 

[GONE Ridin' Hood]

I disagree with the previous poster about the NAFTA agreement: While there has been worst poverty levels in the past the agreement has had nefarious consequences for Mexico in the last two decades. You need only to look at how the neoliberalistic agenda in Mexico has produced greater and greater injustices and disparities ( No other country in the world can claim to have the 2nd soon-to-be the 1st richest man in the world and still have over 60 million people in poverty ) to the point that even stereotypical petit-bourgeoisie its disappearing from the country: Most professional level jobs are disappearing and middle class people are forced into poverty and "outsourcing" jobs working for transnational companies who pay as low as 1/10th of what the same employee makes in the united states.

Not only that but in the last 7 years alone there has been over a million people illegally crossing the border to the united states alone and I can tell you from first hand experience that quite a bit of us are making it as far away as Canada to work, of course illegally, on backbreaking jobs like construction.

Does that looks like a success for the NAFTA agreement? What about the increase in the corn prices this year, reaching critical levels and the goverment looking to make things WORST by removing the restrictions to import US corn early ( supposed to be in effect in 2008 but they were pushing to activate that early by artificially manipulating the corn prices intentionally )

And I havent even got into the FOBAPROA fraud and the natural gas price explosion ( over 400% inflation explosion after the spanish private industry took it over, FOR A GAS PRODUCING COUNTRY ). In fact the only way it is sustained is by blatant and admitted electoral fraud( by the maximum electoral authority, TRIFE or Federal Electoral Tribunal ) and US interventionism in the elections ( Amigos de Fox is still refusing to show its funding cause I bet you any amount its directly tied to US CIA offshots like National Endowment for Democracy, International Republican Institute and so on ) or even the proven links like Hildebrando, in charge of the software to count the votes, ( conveniently run by the Current "President"'s brother in law, talk about partiality ) buying software to the same company that caused the Bush electoral fraud scandal in Florida.

And for those of you mocking a Latin America union there IS one strong proposal right now coming out of Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela: The ALBA agreement ( Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas ) in which many latin american countries are already putting resources togheter with institutions like Banco del Sur ( south bank ) soon to be established that actually tie economies together with a monetary fund and loans specifically designed to social programs, as well as non-commercial base trade focusing on strengthening countries and reverse social inequities ( Like Cuba trading doctors for oil with Venezuela which in turn uses said doctors for things like Mision Barrio Adentro in atempting to honor their socialist-oriented constitution and provide free health care to marginalized poor neighborhoods )

Things are happening quite fast in Latin America, is not for nothing that the CIA attempted to stage a failed Coup D'etat against Hugo Chavez in 2002 by directly financing Venezuela Political Parties and media ( look up the book "The Chavez Code" by Eva Golinger where she actually bases all this information on declassified and partially declassified documents obtained by the freedom on information act to uncover the US interventionist role ). The US knows that unlike Cuba they cannot hope to isolate Venezuela because of the huge interest in their vast oil reserves ( Venezuela is the single country with the most oil reserves in the world ) and its open support to Cuba which might finally end the US imposed Blockade when Banco del Sur is implemented and Cuba shows the world what Socialism is capable of when its not under direct attack from imperialist countries.

As a last comment Fiction is probably the greatest DT album since Haven

Eso es exactamente lo que yo digo (that's what I'm talking about ).

I guess you know about CAFTA (TLC) right? I'm proud that Costa Rica is the only one that hasn't signed the treaty, but I don't know how much that will last (ohhh my poor country ye're going down teh pits ).

@metal devi: Agreed, and hopefully my beautiful country will not become the same.


Concerning abortion, once again I believe it is alright to abort when the baby is 2 months or less old, as soon as he/she can feel I do not agree to have an abortion. I don't want any more physical suffering towards mankind, thank you.

People say that you can leave children for adoption, but what if they're never picked up? You know that there are 50 year old guys with no parents because they're still waiting to be adopted? And it's not like it's going to happen any time soon.

Abortion is not a crime, it is an option, a choice and a right. An option for women that cannot afford a baby, a choice for women that were raped and do not want to have a stranger's baby, and a right for all women in the world to do what they, not others, believe is right.

 

[afz902k]

TLC does make buying online cheaper, you know?
Screw the country! I just want cheap records!

 

[QRV]

As a last comment Fiction is probably the greatest DT album since Haven

I agree on everything except that last comment.


On the abortion issue:

Don't know why, but it appears simple to me. Killing an embryo or a fetus legally would mean they're not to be considered as human beings. Then there's no argument that could say clearly why they aren't. What makes a human human? Is it consciousness, a primitive brain-spinal system, the fact the thing starts looking like a monkey? I mean, please bring a reason that doesn't looks like it's been pulled out of a diarrheic ass. Biologically there's nothing that can determine the humanity of a being. Metaphysically, though, the essence of a human being would be contained in the zygote, because it holds the potential to complete the cycle of a human life.

You can go and tell whatever social argument. Overpopulation, the fact that if it comes from a raping or if most likely the baby's going to grow in an orphanage and become a pennyless thief or drug-addict... Well, that's determining a destiny and a lack of sense in his life, and nobody's got the right to do such a thing.

However, people will keep aborting children, legally or illegally. So maybe it's better if they go to a clinic that makes use of standarized medical procedures instead of going with the needles lady. But doing that wouldn't go to the point, it would just be patching the problem.

Ideally, the solution would be creating a better orphan state care and improving the adoption system. I mean, before actually eliminating poverty and creating a major, unreal cultural change that's simply not going to happen. So we're fucked up on that issue.

Personally though, I don't give a damn what people do. Fine if they don't abort, and if they do, then it's up to their consciences.

 

[afz902k]

I think biologically there is something that can prove the humanity of a being: DNA. Thus, chimps are 98% human and should be treated as such.

 

[Misanthrope]

@misanthrope: well, i see where you are coming from, but i have serious troubles accepting the argument according to which life begins only when you are outside the womb.

Realistically speaking most abortion cases, if they were actually legal everywhere, would only occur when the "fetus" its a little bit more than a bunch of cells thrown in together without any nervous system at all ( therefore incapable of rational thought or even feeling anything physical at all, which defies any definition of "life" ) Removing a wart is more of a homicide than most abortions.

And in cases like in Mexico City the legislation specifically talks about 3 months or less to accommodate such argument.

@QRV: And also, I disagree with you on your "ideally" situation. Ideally, abortion wouldn't be a problem if social, moral and religious stigmas wouldn't stop effective sexual education and widespread open and honest use of contraceptives. The adoption programs would mostly suffice if there was proper sexual education.

 

[Misanthrope]

Now, about Mexico: misanthrope you are mostly right, but you're not looking at the big picture. I can tell you the situation is not really as bad as you describe it, but it is bad and it is worse than, say, 10 years ago.

Mexico should understand that importing renewable products that can be produced here is just not a very smart thing to do (that includes the majority of goods that come from agriculture).
Though, a sector that has taken advantage of the free trade agreement is the industrial one, which is quite linked to what I do now (especialized technical support for mostly big companies). I'd say it's healthy and steady (apart from some individual cases, such as the Honda facility near my City which is scheduled to close its doors soon).

Why is it "not a very smart thing" to produce agricultural products within the country? Cause its not "cost efficient"? You know how developed countries make em cost efficient? By subsidizing farmers. Now if Mexico was serious about agriculture it would vastly expand and implement funding for farmers and agriculture in general.

By depending on just importing agricultural products you automatically make the entire socio-economical system dependent on foreign economies and the countries behind em with more than a little controversial foreign policy ( Look at the U.S. and their history of foreign policy all over the world ) Not only that I go as far as saying as losing sovereignty over the country and handing complete control to the US that might disagree with your government or decisions and impose brutal, genocidal sanctions and outright embargoes like they have done with Cuba since 1959.

How is it "healthy and steady" to relinquish control of the country economy for the U.S. to plunder every last bit of resources and force people into poverty by not being able to afford anything since their weaker economy is crushed by the imperialistic war machine of the U.S. ? How is it healthy that you probably work for a U.S. company and all the added value you are creating with your work force goes directly to the United States pockets therefore forever keeping you subjugated to their will? The fact that Mexican companies slowly reduce operations and disappear in favor of huge monopolies and transnational companies only means that the economy will further plunge into recession as interest rates shoot through the roof ( because of national and now international market speculation that exponentially increases the problem )

You might be too comfortable to notice but 60 million fellow mexicans notice inflation rates right away when they are unable to bring food to their tables, when they are unable to meet house payments, bank payments. All of this because the NAFTA agreement means that not only we have to deal with the natural problems Capitalism always creates ( which is massive concentration of wealth and resources into the hands of literally a handful of people ) but we also have our entire economy competing and depending on trade with the U.S. which means we get none of the capitalism "advantages" ( which is infrastructure in order to exploit people more efficiently to create profits, Mexico is severely lacking behind technology and infrastructure in so many places and marginalized communities and "ghetto" areas is not even funny ) and all of the disadvantages ( If U.S. Capitalism catches a natural "cold" and enters economical resetion like it always does, our interdependence of their economy means that same resetion is a complete fucking economical and social breakdown )

So I fail to see any advantages at all for the NAFTA agreement as opposed to tyrannical imposed disadvantages that have pretty much sent the country into massive social inequities and constant turmoil that is trying to be suppressed right now with outright Fascism from National Action.

 

[afz902k]

Erm.. You misread it.

 

[QRV]

@QRV: And also, I disagree with you on your "ideally" situation. Ideally, abortion wouldn't be a problem if social, moral and religious stigmas wouldn't stop effective sexual education and widespread open and honest use of contraceptives. The adoption programs would mostly suffice if there was proper sexual education.

Right. That'd be the main issue, I guess. The adoption thing is secondary, but also important.

I think biologically there is something that can prove the humanity of a being: DNA. Thus, chimps are 98% human and should be treated as such.

No, that is accidental. I meant for something essential.

 

[GONE Ridin' Hood]

Yes, I agree that the problem truly is sexual education. If it were well done (or done at all), so many abortions wouldn't be necessary.
Thena again, IMO a lot of people know they have to use condoms but are too ashamed to buy them at the local grocery store or something (I was, but only in the 1st month hehe ).

Concerning NAFTA I guess that afz is a bit of Mexican high class since he doesn't seem to be affected by the treaty at all .

I know I won't be affecte by CAFTA at all, my family has plenty of money and I'll be an English teacher next year, so that would help a lot. Still, this is the time in which one ponders: "Should I choose what's best for my country or what is best for me."

I definetly choose the 1st one, and very proud of it.

I will start distributing anti-CAFTA papers around so people become more conscious about how we would also become

...the backyard of the US.

 

[afz902k]

What? We're not rich (me and my family), we are simply managing to pay for everything we need, sometimes just barely.
LBRH, you're the snobby one, you've been to Europe!

 

[hyena]

@afz: well, just nevermind danny's convinction that everyone is very rich on this board - he seems to be convinced that i have as much money as berlusconi or something, which is absolutely ridiculous (i do have a nice flat, but i will be paying for it over the next thousand years or so).