The Official Good Television Thread
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rms
Active Member
Going to have to demonstrate that. Outside of Jon not being a Stark, I don't think anything else has been demonstrated in the show.
Even if it has been hinted at, doesn't really address how it isn't stupid. There's a lot of elements in the show that are stupid, but I don't think any of them are as foundational as that one
Even if it has been hinted at, doesn't really address how it isn't stupid. There's a lot of elements in the show that are stupid, but I don't think any of them are as foundational as that one
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
1. Rhagear is described almost universally as noble, kind, loved by all, which is supposed to draw his alleged kidnapping and rape of Leanna into question (also look at Littlefinger's "you buy that bullshit?" look at 2:30). All the evidence seems to show Robbert Baratheon as the aggressive and irrational one, not Rhagear, thus making the commonly believed story suspect.
2. Ned is all about honor, which made his cheating on Catelyn is out of character. Ned won't say shit about Jon's mom. However, by the end of season 1 we know he is willing to tarnish his reputation if it's the "right thing to do" (1. claiming he committed treason to save his daughters 2. claiming he cheated on his wife to save Jon)
3. Ned is hellbent on protecting Dany from Robbert's plan to kill Dany (the other surviving Targaryen).
Those are the main clues, but there's lots of smaller moments, as you can see throughout the video (i.e. Stannis's comments about Ned). It was certainly well laid out for the keen observer.
As far as it being stupid, the burden of proof is on you there.
rms
Active Member
Eddard is by far the most likeable, honorable character in the show. no one even comes close to his policy of handing down the death sentence. he never cheated on his wife, allowed his name to be tarnished for 2 decades over fostering his sister's child without saying anything.
But then he's also the same guy who blindly follows Robert into a war over events that never occurred? and Robert, who said he didn't want to rule he just likes fighting, suddenly makes a fake-war to take a position he never wanted?
It doesn't add up to me, and i watched all the eps in the last 2 or 3 weeks
rms
Active Member
already did the burden of proof and expanded on it above, so maybe counter it? haven't watched the vid but if it's just those points above that doesn't counter anything
people from Dorn also don't kill children, I think this is quite a reach. Ned is honorable, nothing he hinted at made it seem like a familial bias over decency.
he might have, but he died. He told Jon the next time he saw him he'd tell him (everything?)
exactly, honorable guy who goes into an unhonorable war. makes total sense
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Honestly, I don't see anything to counter. It fits Ned's character, and doesn't hurt the Baratheon plot, which finished two seasons ago and was a secondary-plot anyway. Clearly, they've set this up since the beginning. Ultimately, their moves either sold it to you or they didn't. They worked for me, not for you. But then again, you don't like any of the primary characters, so obviously this show isn't a good fit for you. I recommend you stop watching it since it displeases you so much. It's a waste of your time.
rms
Active Member
how does it fit his character to fight in an unjust war? the fuck are you talking about LOL
Why would Robert fear the usurper Danny when he knows JON SNOW IS REALLY THE RIGHTFUL HEIR? LOL it's in the fucking youtube clip you linked!
god damn CF i'm actually surprised at how bad are you at critical thinking consistently
Why would Robert fear the usurper Danny when he knows JON SNOW IS REALLY THE RIGHTFUL HEIR? LOL it's in the fucking youtube clip you linked!
god damn CF i'm actually surprised at how bad are you at critical thinking consistently
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
The throne wasnt usurped based on a lie. The Mad King had to be killed one way or another, and Rhaegar wasnt going to be okay with that so theres that. Also Robert was a descendant of Rhaelle Targaryen, thats why he was the one who took the throne isntead of Ned, Jon Aryn or any of the other houses that you would say "usurped" the Targaryens. Also, do you know how the Targaryens originally came to power?
Him killing or burning people at the stake for not obeying him means nothing really. People on this show get executed regularly for "treason" or not following the commands of their highers or what not
And far as the books go, GMMR has said with his own mouth that he is still alive and well and that he himself was pretty let down with the writers decision to have him burn Shireen
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Who ever said it was unjust? Like most things in this saga, it wasn't a black and white situation. Furthermore, you're assuming that Ned knew things that we don't know whether or not he knew when he joined the rebellion. Thus, it's a hasty and ungrounded criticism. If you lack the capacity for nuance, I recommend you stick to more simplistic stories.
Either you didn't watch the last episode or you are too stupid to grasp a clearly expressed plot point (in which case, find a show better suited to your intellect). In the last episode Leanna told Ned to protect Jon/Aegon, obviously from the wrath of the wildly jealous Robert. Thus, Robert didn't know about Jon/Aegon. Beyond that, it's obvious from season 1 that Robert had no idea who Jon was. How you didn't get that after the entire saga twice is beyond me.
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Robert's rebellion was triggered by Rhaegar's alleged kidnapping of Lyanna, which is now established to be a lie.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert's_Rebellion
Now that we know that there was no abduction, we can conclude the rebellion's catalyst was a lie.
I think the show and books make it clear that Stannis's blood sacrifices are abnormal. Davos and Shireen, the characters in this arc we are supposed to be drawn to, are repulsed by the act, while the lunatic Selyse and Melissandre are the ones who support it.
As far as what Martin said, I wasn't aware of that. It very well might be a divergence by the show, but to defend the show, they set it up well and were planting seeds that this would happen throughout Seasons 4 and 5. It definitely didn't happen out of the blue. And as far as the books go, Stannis ending up in the grave, one way or anther and probably fairly soon.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
you seem to be pointing out things that every person who has watched the show knows. Like literally the characters themselves have said some of the things that you think you are pointing out here. All that has nothing to do with the fact that the Mad King had to be killed, and lose his crown. Again, you seem to always make me repeat myself. Just go back and re-read my last post. There was no way the Targeryens were not going to lose their seat, and rightfully so if i might add.
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rms
Active Member
even if i am dumb, to think that GoT is a show for intellectuals is kind of hilarious
you don't find it ridiculous that her being in love with the Prince & pregnant was somehow kept secret when the information networks in GoT are rampant?
Lyanna begged Ned to promise to keep her baby safe from Robert, who would have had the child killed if he found out Rhaegar was his father
"oh wow Ned, your sister died and as your bringing her dead body back to Winterfell you also had a bastard son? cool"
uh what the hell do you think his sister told him when she asked to bring Jon Snow back to Winterfell?
don't think she would have spilled the beans about being in love with the Prince?(the High Septon had also secretly annulled Rhaegar's marriage to Elia Martell)
this detail seems highly improbable it was kept secret, especially for a dead prince
would have been a better direction for Robert. now making him the wildly jealous hurts the Stark bond with him and the entire first season
season1 framed Robert as the torn lover who became fat, a drunk and a terrible king because his true love died. To which this then helped mold Cercei into the garbage character she has been throughout the show. Now, we're left to wonder how the hell did all this stay a secret and how did no one realize Robert was this overly jealous?
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
Phylactery
Active Member
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
The fact that the war was based on a lie doesn't mean it was purely unjust. If Ned didn't know that the rebellion was based on a lie, then his intentions could be just. That's pretty basic.
I never said it was a show for intellectuals. I simply said it was too complex for you.
I'm sure some people knew (Littlefinger seemed to) or at least suspected. But to make that knowledge public, they would not only have to have the knowledge but the motive release the info. Since Rhaegar and Lyanna were both dead and no one knew what happened to the baby (except perhaps the midwives), no one would have the motive to release the info. Do you really want to be the one to spread the message that the woman was obsessed with actually loved someone else?
"oh wow Ned, your sister died and as your bringing her dead body back to Winterfell you also had a bastard son? cool"
That's not implausible at all. Soldiers fucking while at war is not exactly irregular.
uh what the hell do you think his sister told him when she asked to bring Jon Snow back to Winterfell?
The Tower of Joy occurred at the END of Robert's Rebellion.
I don't see a problem here at all.
Phylactery
Active Member
The things she's done (without remorse) are some of the worst things on the show. That scene in the dungeon with Ellaria and her daughter I found to be more harrowing and disturbing than some of the more graphic scenes shown.
TechnicalBarbarity
Poser Disposer
oh my bad got a little confused because you didnt quote rms for the Cersei part. I thought you guys were talking about Sansa being a monster/terrible person or what not. Cersei is without a doubt the most ruthless bitch that Westeros has ever seen.
Oh and i loved that scene
i love all of her dungeon scenes, lol.
Phylactery
Active Member
Yeah, I wasn't calling Sansa a monster. She's too boring to be one.
I actually liked Cersei up until that scene, I think she went too far there. But then she had every right due to what Ellaria did to Myrcella I just think it was too much.
I actually liked Cersei up until that scene, I think she went too far there. But then she had every right due to what Ellaria did to Myrcella I just think it was too much.
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