The Official Good Television Thread

Well, what can I say. I thought S3 of Dark was really good.

But I can see why some people would be displeased. It did introduce a lot of new elements; but I think that was the only way to wrap up without breaking its own rules.

It didnt really introduce any new ideas though. The
alternate reality element wasnt really mined as an idea, it was just a crutch for the writers to recycle the same concept every episode ad nauseum: character travelling in time/reality, meeting with a different version/younger version of themselves or someone else, boring psychobabble discussion about fate ensues.
 
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It didnt really introduce any new ideas though. The
alternate reality element wasnt really mined as an idea, it was just a crutch for the writers to recycle the same concept every episode ad nauseum: character travelling in time/reality, meeting with a different version/younger version of themselves or someone else, boring psychobabble discussion about fate ensues.

I didn't quite see it that way.

I guess I wasn't expecting more mining than there actually was. Up until the end of S2, we were basically in an Einsteinian model, i.e. time and space were relative but only comprised a single world. Things might be perceived or experienced differently, but they were all still of the same universe. The end of S2 and S3 introduced the Copenhagen model (more or less). I didn't see it as a crutch, but as an extrapolation that was already implicit in pre-quantum physics. In S1 and 2, time is nonlinear and looping, but repetitive; everyone does the same thing, over and over again. The Copenhagen model merely bore out the implication that no, people don't/wouldn't necessarily always do the same thing; in fact, sometimes they do precisely the opposite thing at the same time. I think they introduced this concept so as to bring the narrative to a close without breaking the rules of the first two seasons (that is, of time travel).

I thought all that came across clearly in the narrative, and I thought their presentation of it was appropriately anti-human: no matter what decisions people make, they're still trapped (by fate, or destiny, whatever; in physics, it would just be "determinism"). Ultimately, it lived up to its name. The characters realized their very existence is a splinter of a prior world, and that if they don't end themselves then they're doomed to keep repeating it. Pretty fucking bleak. (I actually thought that Jonas and Martha were going to appear in front of the car on the bridge, hence forcing it into the water and causing the event that would give rise to their world--guess the showrunners felt that was too bleak, haha)

Also, I'm pretty sure the final dinner scene suggests that the "original" world itself is a splinter from an earlier "original." If we follow the logic of the science, then there is no original world (excepting maybe the world as it existed immediately after the Big Bang...? but that's outside my knowledge); all realities are the results of choices made in others. I think that was the point of Hannah saying she had déjà vu.

Anyway, that's all just my take. Like I said, I get why it's disappointing to some.

As far as things I didn't like:

The fucking star tunnel, or whatever. I don't understand the reason for it, and I thought it looked terrible.
 
The ending , which you noted to in your spoiler

I'm starting s3 again soon but the questions I have going in are:

If Martha becomes the anti Jonas, how is her influence not known by Adam and older Jonas ? Her machine can travel to any day on any world, her influence is even stronger than Adam

And the show really argues you can't break the circle, this I consider the core belief of the show. But in s3, Claudia breaks the circle which then leads to Adam and Eve breaking the circle. I'm pretty sure how this played out went against everything in s2

And I don't know the explanation behind the Copenhagen model, but I imagine the opposite reactions , or just different, still lead to the same conclusion of time? If not, then that idea breaks the loop introduced in the first two seasons

In the end, I think they mistakingly opened the can of worms with the multiverse theory and spent 6 episodes annoying us to death with it IMO. The family tree is so ridiculous that you have to question how can a show based in quantum physics not recognize or address thebthe influence of DIRECT INCEST :lol:
 
The ending , which you noted to in your spoiler

I'm starting s3 again soon but the questions I have going in are:

If Martha becomes the anti Jonas, how is her influence not known by Adam and older Jonas ? Her machine can travel to any day on any world, her influence is even stronger than Adam

And the show really argues you can't break the circle, this I consider the core belief of the show. But in s3, Claudia breaks the circle which then leads to Adam and Eve breaking the circle. I'm pretty sure how this played out went against everything in s2

And I don't know the explanation behind the Copenhagen model, but I imagine the opposite reactions , or just different, still lead to the same conclusion of time? If not, then that idea breaks the loop introduced in the first two seasons

In the end, I think they mistakingly opened the can of worms with the multiverse theory and spent 6 episodes annoying us to death with it IMO. The family tree is so ridiculous that you have to question how can a show based in quantum physics not recognize or address thebthe influence of DIRECT INCEST :lol:

re. Martha--

I think Adam does know about her, does he not? All he doesn't know is that she's found the loophole and has been exploiting it. I could be misremembering because it's really easy to miss stuff in this show.

re. breaking the circle--I think that holds true if there's only one world. But in a quantum interpretation in which multiple states can exist simultaneously, it's surely possible. One quantum conclusion is that every single potentiality plays out in different realities, and so somewhere the loops must be broken--possibly even in several realities the loops are broken. This scenario still doesn't break with the notion of predetermination though, which I think is one of the show's themes: i.e. that people are already doomed to what they'll do. The creation of the worlds is derived from a set of prior conditions (in the "original" world), and all the possibilities that might happen within the splinter worlds are determined by those conditions.

In essence, I take what happened at the end of S3 to be akin to going back to the "Big Bang." The key to dissolving everything was to find the fissure out of which their worlds were created and seal it. If we're in a quantum framework (insofar as the show interprets it), then there has to be at least one world where that's possible. There's nothing about that that goes against any of its laws. It just chose to introduce those laws over the course of the narrative.

re. the final comment, I'm not sure I follow--"you have to question how can a show based in quantum physics not recognize or address the influence of DIRECT INCEST." I don't understand the connection between quantum physics and incest. I mean, incest has always been one of the most common tropes when discussing the paradoxes of time travel, i.e. a man goes back and becomes his own grandfather... which means he fucked his grandmother. I don't see what's quantum about it. Also, the quantum framework introduces the possibility of alternate worlds/realities; time travel is generally derived from theories of general relativity. That doesn't mean it's not possible in quantum theory, just that quantum theory doesn't (historically speaking) add that much.

It's only in the past 15-20 years or so that quantum physics has begun to yield insights into time, and this might be some of what Dark is trying to get into. Effectively, at a quantum scale, time doesn't exist--or rather, time exists ubiquitously: "elementary processes cannot be ordered along a common succession of instants," according to Carlo Rovelli. I think this was the point of H.G.'s speech about quantum effects applying to large objects (like human bodies). At the quantum level, changes don't occur sequentially but simultaneously. If this applied at the macroscopic level, then people could be doing entirely different things at the same moment. I think that's the implication of the final season. Time doesn't really exist.

Also, as I mentioned above, I think all this was already implicit in S1. I don't think the showrunners pulled it out of their asses. S1 opens with the Einstein quote: "The distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." H.G.'s overdubbed speech also says that "Yesterday, today and tomorrow are not consecutive, they are connected in a never-ending circle." This could be interpreted as meaning that time is relative and nonlinear (i.e. general relativity), and that it loops back into itself--i.e. the perspective until the end of S2. But it could also be interpreted as meaning that time doesn't exist (i.e. quantum physics)--which doesn't mean nothing happens, but rather that everything happens at the same "time." This is the perspective of S3.
 
I think Adam does know about her, does he not? All he doesn't know is that she's found the loophole and has been exploiting it. I could be misremembering because it's really easy to miss stuff in this show.

I have problems with Eve's introduction into the whole story, which leads me to my final interpretation: Adam/Older Jonas never mention Eve to "our" Jonas because it's an insanely sized can of worms that the show runners could never attempt to explain or depict, considering that her influence can extend to s01 e01 in an 8 episode final season. We spend a considerable time just following the lives of the 3 children ! Who have lived long enough to have all three phases of life. (young, adult, old)

Her time traveling device, which does not have the same physical impact that Adam has, can move her between worlds and days of the year. She is not limited to the cycle like Jonas and his "split world" is. Her influence is unexplained, leaving me to think her influence could so vast we could never know what reality is in Dark.

re. breaking the circle--I think that holds true if there's only one world. But in a quantum interpretation in which multiple states can exist simultaneously, it's surely possible. One quantum conclusion is that every single potentiality plays out in different realities, and so somewhere the loops must be broken--possibly even in several realities the loops are broken. This scenario still doesn't break with the notion of predetermination though, which I think is one of the show's themes: i.e. that people are already doomed to what they'll do. The creation of the worlds is derived from a set of prior conditions (in the "original" world), and all the possibilities that might happen within the splinter worlds are determined by those conditions.

I would say the show does not have a "one off" world where the loop can break (or many variations that do in fact, break the loop. and that we are "fortunate" enough to watch this one world/reality where it does happen), rather that Claudia is the binding force that brings it all back together. That she is some sort of God like figure to bring together Adam & Eve (black/white, yin/yang etc.) How does she break the circle? Well, like she's always done it (if we're to believe this isn't the first iteration of the timeline we're witnessing): By doing the same thing every time she's lived!

We agree that the show is clearly interested in a horrible and nasty pre-determined world of horrible ness in a small part of Germany. The show is no longer interested in this by its conclusion.

If we're in a quantum framework (insofar as the show interprets it), then there has to be at least one world where that's possible. There's nothing about that that goes against any of its laws. It just chose to introduce those laws over the course of the narrative.
It also goes against it's own idea that you cannot change the past: ie you cannot save the car crash for Tiedemann's sake. But by saying "at least one world" -- there isn't at least one world! There's always Adam, Eve and the normal. There isn't a 4th, 5th, etc. So I don't really know why you're using that phrasing for Dark?

don't understand the connection between quantum physics and incest.

It was a joke, mannnnnnn. The show loves introducing time travel and quantum physics, something very abstract for our sense of reality, but has no ability to discuss something very real in our reality-- INCEST! :lol: I forget how it all ended up, but half the fucking people birthed themselves :lol:

I think that's the implication of the final season. Time doesn't really exist.

but rather that everything happens at the same "time

I wrote some responses but I don't think you can just throw these lines out there without connecting them to the show at all. The entire show is a timeline presented to us that we consistently under estimate. We have no idea what the timeline truly is because we can never seem to guess all the events that happened before hand.

Season 3 introduces an ulterior world and a major character, which is limited by time (day when martha dies & when the apocalypse occurs) and has no sense in grappling with that new change before that specific time.

I think it is more of the same, that the show presents general relativity, but they didn't go far enough because presenting all these options contradicts the three world scenario they wanted to create
 
I have problems with Eve's introduction into the whole story, which leads me to my final interpretation: Adam/Older Jonas never mention Eve to "our" Jonas because it's an insanely sized can of worms that the show runners could never attempt to explain or depict, considering that her influence can extend to s01 e01 in an 8 episode final season. We spend a considerable time just following the lives of the 3 children ! Who have lived long enough to have all three phases of life. (young, adult, old)

I think her influence does extend to S1 E1. Why is it a problem that we don't know about her that early, or even earlier than S3?

Her time traveling device, which does not have the same physical impact that Adam has, can move her between worlds and days of the year. She is not limited to the cycle like Jonas and his "split world" is. Her influence is unexplained, leaving me to think her influence could so vast we could never know what reality is in Dark.

I mean, maybe we never can...?

I would say the show does not have a "one off" world where the loop can break (or many variations that do in fact, break the loop. and that we are "fortunate" enough to watch this one world/reality where it does happen), rather that Claudia is the binding force that brings it all back together. That she is some sort of God like figure to bring together Adam & Eve (black/white, yin/yang etc.) How does she break the circle? Well, like she's always done it (if we're to believe this isn't the first iteration of the timeline we're witnessing): By doing the same thing every time she's lived!

Well, the conceit of any narrative is that we're fortunate enough to see it happen. No one wants to see the version of Alien where they don't intercept a distress beacon and go investigate.

You're entitled to that reading, of course; but I don't agree. The characters in the show state outright that entirely different events happen simultaneously. It was revealed that that's what Eva uses the loophole for--to create scenarios in which her younger self both does and doesn't save Jonas. Both events happen simultaneously.

We agree that the show is clearly interested in a horrible and nasty pre-determined world of horrible ness in a small part of Germany. The show is no longer interested in this by its conclusion.

Sure it is! It's just a whole new way of perceiving predetermination. They were predetermined never to have existed--and they never did, if time didn't actually exist in their universe.

What they experienced as time, and the show told us was time, wasn't time at all. But narratives are sequential, so that's the only way it could present us with its events.

It also goes against it's own idea that you cannot change the past: ie you cannot save the car crash for Tiedemann's sake. But by saying "at least one world" -- there isn't at least one world! There's always Adam, Eve and the normal. There isn't a 4th, 5th, etc. So I don't really know why you're using that phrasing for Dark?

This just goes to show how difficult it is to speak about these things in logical terms.

Yes, there are three worlds in the meta-world of Dark; but in those three worlds, an infinite number of realities play themselves out among the characters. Pretty sure this is at least suggested at some point.

It was a joke, mannnnnnn. The show loves introducing time travel and quantum physics, something very abstract for our sense of reality, but has no ability to discuss something very real in our reality-- INCEST! :lol: I forget how it all ended up, but half the fucking people birthed themselves :lol:

What does it need to discuss? Incest is one of the most supreme taboo tropes of gothic narrative (for which Dark absolutely qualifies). No one ever talks about the incest in such narratives. They don't need to. We know it's there, they know it's there. What more is there to discuss? "Damn, we're all related--this is fucked up!" Yes, thank you, it is. That's all.

I wrote some responses but I don't think you can just throw these lines out there without connecting them to the show at all. The entire show is a timeline presented to us that we consistently under estimate. We have no idea what the timeline truly is because we can never seem to guess all the events that happened before hand.

It's said in S3 that the loophole allows Eva to both send Martha to save Jonas, and send Bartosz to prevent Martha from saving Jonas. Those two things both happen in the alt-reality, and they happen simultaneously.

Season 3 introduces an ulterior world and a major character, which is limited by time (day when martha dies & when the apocalypse occurs) and has no sense in grappling with that new change before that specific time.

Again, I think we have to accept that what we've been shown as time may not have been. Everything was happening at once.

I think it is more of the same, that the show presents general relativity, but they didn't go far enough because presenting all these options contradicts the three world scenario they wanted to create

The show presents general relativity and quantum physics. The discussion of Schrödinger's Cat makes it plain that quantum physics is at play. General relativity and quantum physics complement each other in some ways, and contradict each other in others. There's no theoretical/scientific resolution to those contradictions, and I certainly wouldn't expect Dark to resolve them.

Whew, that's a lot of fucking spoiler editing. I think we just disagree on what's going on in the show, which is fine. I'd have to rewatch to really get harder evidence, but I'm pretty confident in most of what I'm saying... :tickled:
 
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I don't have enough brain cells to read that post right now but I'm going to like it just for the effort. I just want to add that there was one thing I especially liked about the ending.

Everything that happened across three seasons, the multiple decades of cyclic tragedies, all of it amounted to nothing but a fluctuation in space-time that allowed two apparitions to briefly manifest to avert a fatal car accident and then pop out of existence forever. I liked that. Tannhauser's time machine ends up being a "useless machine", like one of those boxes that close itself. I do think the show had to invent some rules to get there but it's a cool way to end things.
 
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My problem with S3 is less the consistency of the quantum physics; more narratively. I think it was rms who posted before that you could watch ep 1 and the last two and not miss anything. Everything that happens in between is laboured and achromatic. What character developed in this series? What was the point of scenes like Katerina confronting old Ulrich in the prison/mental ward?
 
My problem with S3 is less the consistency of the quantum physics; more narratively. I think it was rms who posted before that you could watch ep 1 and the last two and not miss anything. Everything that happens in between is laboured and achromatic. What character developed in this series? What was the point of scenes like Katerina confronting old Ulrich in the prison/mental ward?

I think they had to have a reason for her to die on the beach. That's how the necklace gets there.
 
I finished season 3 for the second time, and surprised at how quickly I forgot so many details :lol:

but these two still remain:

Claudia breaking the cycle. Adam has "sacrificed" Martha an infinite number of times (to quote old Claudia in I think episode 7), but nothing has changed in order for Claudia to break the loop. Imagine how much more satisfying the ending would have been if it ended when Adam opens up his eyes and realizes she is not the origin? What a shame
Middle aged Jonas not knowing about the 2nd world (which is why Adam doesn't know about the 2nd world) -- The implication, seeing as the scene following 1880's Jonas crying at the sight of Martha being alive, that Jonas dying in the alternate old is why middle aged Jonas does not have this memory. Now, i'm no time travelling sci-fi expert, but how does the cycle repeat if young Jonas is dead? When middle aged Jonas locks young Jonas in Noah's room/prison, he explicitly states he's experienced everything he has because I am you or something like that. Definitely need some clarity on that, personally

But something that didn't bug me as much the first time around,
The best motivation for Eve and Claudia's decision making is motherhood? Claudia is a shit mother and Eve is so attached to her kids, before she has them, that she'll instantly make a decision to side with Eve? Wack.
Some replies..
What character developed in this series
Martha and Claudia for sure, but the development is pretty shallow

But yeah, episodes 1-6 are just a labored and detailed depiction of showing "see! here's our alternate world but same conclusion world" -- but this has significant problems since Eve is the one who caused the apocalypse in both worlds??? We see her son, split screen, pulling the lever in both worlds in episode 6 or 7. So, Eve is kind of all over the place in this season.

Pretty sure this is at least suggested at some point.
it is not suggested :lol: Claudia tells Adam he's killed Martha an infinite number of times and nothing has ever changed. Adam and Eve, together, are what keeps the world from changing. Time is an invisible hand, determining who dies and who doesn't. Like when we saw young Noah/Hanno "save" Jonas from his suicide attempt. Something abstract decides who lives and who dies, and that something vanishes by the conclusion of the show -- unless it is supposed to be Claudia
What more is there to discuss? "Damn, we're all related--this is fucked up!" Yes, thank you, it is. That's all.
there's laughing emojis, it's a joke ya doofus. But you're telling me they can't put one person in the town that is fucked up biologically because he's a direct descendant of a daughter/son etc? :lol:

It's said in S3 that the loophole allows Eva to both send Martha to save Jonas, and send Bartosz to prevent Martha from saving Jonas. Those two things both happen in the alt-reality, and they happen simultaneously.
If you're referring to the end of the show, it's literally a new iteration since the previous one was a failure? Bartosz was always supposed to take Martha back to 1888, but this time Jonas was thrown into the mix to take her back to 1986.


Sure it is! It's just a whole new way of perceiving predetermination. They were predetermined never to have existed--and they never did, if time didn't actually exist in their universe. What they experienced as time, and the show told us was time, wasn't time at all. But narratives are sequential, so that's the only way it could present us with its events.
honestly, are you unable to explain yourself here? I have no idea why you keep repeating "time doesn't exist" without any evidence from the show or thought process as your own. It's literally counter intuitive to everything Adam, Eve and Claudia do in the show.
 
Middle aged Jonas not knowing about the 2nd world (which is why Adam doesn't know about the 2nd world) -- The implication, seeing as the scene following 1880's Jonas crying at the sight of Martha being alive, that Jonas dying in the alternate old is why middle aged Jonas does not have this memory. Now, i'm no time travelling sci-fi expert, but how does the cycle repeat if young Jonas is dead? When middle aged Jonas locks young Jonas in Noah's room/prison, he explicitly states he's experienced everything he has because I am you or something like that. Definitely need some clarity on that, personally

Jonas is both alive and dead.

Here: https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/dark-season-3-theory-finale-schrodingers-cat

When Martha and Jonas save Marek and family from the car crash, it renders their existence invalid. If that's true, then did they even exist at all? It's a bit like the Grandfather Paradox: if you go back in time and shoot your own grandfather, what happens? As is illustrated in the diagram, the paths of timelines form a triquetra, a knot often used in Celtic symbology that consists of three overlapping loops. This symbol is shown often in Dark, such as on the Sic Mundus door found in the cave.

With this foreshadowing visible from the beginning, the creation of a third world seems like a no-brainer. However, that third loop creates an instance where Jonas and Martha simultaneously do and do not exist, forever trapped in limbo.

This is the best explanation I've seen. It's also why the show goes through such trouble to inform its audience on Schrödinger's cat. In quantum physics, subatomic particles exist in completely different states at the same time.

it is not suggested :lol: Claudia tells Adam he's killed Martha an infinite number of times and nothing has ever changed. Adam and Eve, together, are what keeps the world from changing. Time is an invisible hand, determining who dies and who doesn't. Like when we saw young Noah/Hanno "save" Jonas from his suicide attempt. Something abstract decides who lives and who dies, and that something vanishes by the conclusion of the show -- unless it is supposed to be Claudia

That's what I was remembering. But oh well, I only watched the season once, and you admitted how many details you forgot. :rolleyes:

It doesn't change what I'm saying though. The relationship between the separate worlds isn't temporal. You're complaining that the show violated its own rules by the end when what it did introduce entirely new rules. Similarly, quantum physics doesn't obviate general relativity; it just introduces new rules.

honestly, are you unable to explain yourself here? I have no idea why you keep repeating "time doesn't exist" without any evidence from the show or thought process as your own. It's literally counter intuitive to everything Adam, Eve and Claudia do in the show.

No need for spoilers here.

It's like you want a logical, linear explanation for a show whose entire foundation is a fucking paradox. I don't know what to tell you, bub.
 
This is the best explanation I've seen. It's also why the show goes through such trouble to inform its audience on Schrödinger's cat. In quantum physics, subatomic particles exist in completely different states at the same time.

Well, subatomic particles can exist in directly conflicting states and when measured, change, but that feels a little different here.

I think the question is not can this one exist and this one can't, rather how can older version exist without the younger? The grandfather paradox is the opposite of what happens in the show, to my eyes. The young dies and the older versions live.

Starting to think that the suggestion is that Jonas died due to this being the last iteration , but I think that has holes as well.

There being four Martha's(shortly) is also bugging me more. Little questioning there on how that happened.


I guess my own thoughts was the world where the crash doesn't happen is the first world, and an instance where the crash happens then creates the other two(Martha's cannot exist without Jonas' world, right?) And that is how the show plays out, that we witness Jonas journey of this off shoot probability.

Would have to read more on this theory, all these shallow pieces :lol:
 
I think the question is not can this one exist and this one can't, rather how can older version exist without the younger? The grandfather paradox is the opposite of what happens in the show, to my eyes. The young dies and the older versions live.

The older versions of Jonas live? Not after Martha and Jonas end the worlds, though. I thought all their iterations vanish with them.

Starting to think that the suggestion is that Jonas died due to this being the last iteration , but I think that has holes as well.

There being four Martha's(shortly) is also bugging me more. Little questioning there on how that happened.

I guess my own thoughts was the world where the crash doesn't happen is the first world, and an instance where the crash happens then creates the other two(Martha's cannot exist without Jonas' world, right?) And that is how the show plays out, that we witness Jonas journey of this off shoot probability.

Would have to read more on this theory, all these shallow pieces :lol:

I don't know man, but the reality we live in has holes--big black ones. Dark is a show in which cosmological and quantum phenomena are basically scaled to a human narrative. Paradoxes exist in reality and can't be explained away. If a story takes paradoxes as crucial to its narrative, then there are going to be contradictions/anomalies/plot holes. I'd actually be more annoyed if they tried to explain everything.