The thread about guns and stuff like that!

[seedofvengeance]

I just want to know how if you have a gun jammed in your face that you will pull off some Matrix style move to pull a gun and dodge the bullet coming from his gun... If you've got a gun in your face when you're getting mugged, you've lost already.

 

[skeptik]

Phew...sure am glad I don't live in one of those "many states". The law where I am at is CLEAR: if you prove that you (and this is VERY important) were in FEAR FOR YOUR (or your family's) LIFE (lives), and sufficient evidence is available to indicate that the perp (muggers are not humans the minute they intend to harm you) intended you harm (which includes taking your property)or is IN YOUR HOME, you may use lethal force.

In fact, it's cool enough down here that if someone is stealing shit out of your car and is facing you (coming towards you), you may use lethal force to protect your belongings. "Imminent danger" has a broader definition in Texas, thankfully.

I can't even begin to fathom the kind of sympathy WAIF is trying to put across for perpetrators in this world. Sure you don't want to a defense attorney one day? When your best response to me is "you're an idiot" because I won't lay down and allow someone to commit an act of violence or theft upon me....I do believe YOU are the one with problems, man. It is no one's RIGHT (regardless of whatever bullshit reasons one would like to come up with for why) to steal from another person. Anything, at any time, and that's not even including WITH A WEAPON. Whole 'nother ball game, my friend.

And why do you need to use lethal force to stop somebody from stealing your wallet? Do you honestly believe that this is a legitimate compromise? If you found out that a loved one of yours was shot and killed by somebody because he or she tried to take the person's wallet, you would be glad that that person did it (since, after all, your friend or relative is now a scumbag piece of shit perpetrator)? Of course it's nobody's right to steal from another person. So why should you have the right to steal from another person their fucking life? Even if you steal a wallet from a criminal, it's still a crime. Killing a criminal is still a crime. You ARE aware that you can defend yourself without a gun, right? Not every altercation between two human beings is a matter of life and death.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

And why do you need to use lethal force to stop somebody from stealing your wallet? Do you honestly believe that this is a legitimate compromise?

Only if they are armed, and I have a chance to reach my weapon, YES.

If you found out that a loved one of yours was shot and killed by somebody because he or she tried to take the person's wallet, you would be glad that that person did it (since, after all, your friend or relative is now a scumbag piece of shit perpetrator)?

Well good sir, considering the fact that my relatives are mostly military and law enforcement officers (or professionals in their respective fields), they would not BEHAVE in such a manner as to go around mugging people. But, if you're asking in the hypothetical sense, I have enough common sense to understand that if someone partakes in crime, there can be very steep prices to pay for this. Will it lesson the pain if I were to lose them? No. Will it make them suddenly in the right because they fucked with the wrong person? No.

Of course it's nobody's right to steal from another person. So why should you have the right to steal from another person their fucking life?

Right. Wrong. Consequences. Comprehend, please. If they are willing to take my life and have indicated that they will, I have the right to return the favor.

Even if you steal a wallet from a criminal, it's still a crime.

Awww..my sympathies to the douchebag.

Killing a criminal is still a crime.

Depends on the circumstances....or did you miss that in my previous post? Your OPINION doesn't matter when it's clearly stated in state law here.

You ARE aware that you can defend yourself without a gun, right? Not every altercation between two human beings is a matter of life and death.

Woah.....really? You still don't get it. If a perp is willing to use lethal force to commit a crime against you, your pacifist view of how to handle the situation is not always the smart one.

In short: DON'T GO AROUND TRYING TO HURT PEOPLE AND YOU WON'T END UP IN THE SITUATION TO BEGIN WITH.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

...

Has anyone here ever actually been in one of these situations.

Everyone's running the big talk "I'd shoot that fucker" but if it actually came down to it, there's no telling what you'd do.

Ah, "big talk". Well, I've had guns drawn on me several times by asshole thugs trying to impress their little homies (I'm 6'2 and 300 lbs, for some reason a lot of people can't just approach me with a physical confrontation in this town) on several occassions. I've even had a 9 mil pointed directly in my face simply because I said "hello" to someone. During these instances, I did not have a sidearm on me, or else the outcome would have been different.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

If they are willing to take my life and have indicated that they will, I have the right to return the favor.

...wha? That's not ethical at all. Returning the favor implies equality of whatever the favor is; just because someone indicates he is willing to take your life doesn't give you the right to kill him or even hurt him. Sucks, but it's true.

 

[skeptik]

1) I wasn't talking about a perpetrator with a gun. You were implying that you would shoot somebody simply for attempting to steal your wallet regardless of whether or not they had a weapon or even hinted at the possibility that they might have meant you harm. What I was asking you was whether or not you felt justified in shooting and killing an unarmed perpetrator.

2) Obviously I am speaking hypothetically. I couldn't have possibly been speaking in any other way. Again, to clarify, my question was resting on the implication in your previous post that you seemed to feel it was okay to use lethal force on an unarmed perpetrator, but you clarified that.

3) Simply wielding a gun, believe or not, is not indicating that somebody means to kill you, and should not be held as sufficient grounds for pleading "self-defense". More often than not, as in what I would assume must be well over 80% of the time, armed crimes do not end in shots fired. Do you know why? Because fire arms are used primarily as a weapon of fear in most instances. They don't intend to use it, which is why they very rarely are used, which is why it shouldn't be assumed that they intend to use it simply because they have it. What I'm trying to say is that there's a bit more to threatening somebody's life than simply having a gun.

4) So criminals are automatically bad people?

5) Unless it's in self-defense, it is a crime, and even then it is still ambiguous.

6) Your definition of "willing to use lethal force" is simply having a gun. It's not nearly that simple, and you can't react just on that basis. Also, I was not only talking about crimes involving guns, because you didn't seem to be talking only about crimes with guns either. It's a different case if you're legitimately at serious risk of being killed or badly injured, but my point is that lethal force is not always (in fact) rarely necessary.

Ah, "big talk". Well, I've had guns drawn on me several times by asshole thugs trying to impress their little homies (I'm 6'2 and 300 lbs, for some reason a lot of people can't just approach me with a physical confrontation in this town) on several occassions. I've even had a 9 mil pointed directly in my face simply because I said "hello" to someone. During these instances, I did not have a sidearm on me, or else the outcome would have been different.

In other words, based on your own experience, lethal force is not always necessary, even when you have a gun pointed in your face, which proves the point that I was making. Thank you.

 

[PanzerKunt]

Ah, "big talk". Well, I've had guns drawn on me several times by asshole thugs trying to impress their little homies (I'm 6'2 and 300 lbs, for some reason a lot of people can't just approach me with a physical confrontation in this town) on several occassions. I've even had a 9 mil pointed directly in my face simply because I said "hello" to someone. During these instances, I did not have a sidearm on me, or else the outcome would have been different.

Yeah you would draw it and they would shoot you in your fat ass before you even got time to put your finger on the trigger.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

...wha? That's not ethical at all. Returning the favor implies equality of whatever the favor is; just because someone indicates he is willing to take your life doesn't give you the right to kill him or even hurt him. Sucks, but it's true.

Uh....no, that would be false. WHAT THE FUCK DO you get your train of thought from? So someone draws a gun on you and demands money....so you give it to them...and they still shoot you because you're an IDIOT. Well...where does that leave you? Full of anti-gun sentiment and still DEADER THAN A DOORNAIL. You think criminals will rob you and NOT shoot you? In my city alone , I could provide you with the annual (legitamate) statistics to prove you wrong. The little faggoty gangbangers here have shot UNARMED WOMEN WHO GAVE THEM EVERYTHING THEY HAD ( in stores not 20 yards from my former residence). So what was your fucking point again? Oh, nothing....that's right. Get a clue or be a bitch, dude.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

1)In other words, based on your own experience, lethal force is not always necessary, even when you have a gun pointed in your face, which proves the point that I was making. Thank you.

Based on THIS STATEMENT ALONE: ok, let's use some of your own BULLSHIT rationale against YOU, eh? So, you're walking to your car from a gig in Anywhere, USA, and Joe dickhead pulls a piece on you and demands your money. You give it to him and he demands more.....you tell him you have no more, he SHOOTS YOU IN THE HEAD because he ASSUMES you're lying. Now where does that leave your argument? If you think this doesn't happen, I have many friends who will verify that it DOES, stupid. GET OUT OF YOUR FUCKING SHELL AND REALIZE WHAT WORLD WE LIVE IN. I see it all the time..something tells me you read about it in the papers and sympathize with the criminal.

My situations had asshole on powertrips with illegal guns, YOU are trying to make a case against ALL guns because you're a fucking kid who obviously hasn't had the "right people come at you yet. Talk your fucking shit in my city, asshole...go to downtown Chicago, NY, LA, or hell...even NOLA acting like you will tell everyojne with a gun that they're wrong.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

Yeah you would draw it and they would shoot you in your fat ass before you even got time to put your finger on the trigger.

HAHAHA fatass....check my pics in the pic thread, stupid. Since you know so much...fucking child.

 

[S.U.A.D.]

1)
4) So criminals are automatically bad people?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? No, dude, they're very NICE people with circumstances that make them do what they do, but DON'T WORRY....they don't mean it.

MORON.

 

[Never78]

For my part, I think people need to be made an example of. Crime is high because people know they can do whatever they want; I am not saying we should shoot unarmed people or kill if we do not feel we have to; but when someone enters a stranger's house and gets shot it sends a message to criminals. "Perhaps I should not go around pointing guns at people"; "Perhaps I should stay out of other people's houses". Instead they know that most people are the "love your enemies" type (not saying you guys are) and will likely fold.

People die all the time; good people who don't deserve it. Try to save the people who are worth saving. I don't see how you guys can stand there with a gun in your face and think "maybe he doesn't mean to kill me". I am thinking "give me an opening". No, you do not always have to shoot him, you can tackle and beat the shit out of him, but my point is that they have to learn that citizens will not back down and wimper for their lives. Make the criminals the weak party and not the citizens. I am not giving up my wallet.

 

[supseudonymous]

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? No, dude, they're very NICE people with circumstances that make them do what they do, but DON'T WORRY....they don't mean it.

MORON.

 

[Krigloch the Furious]

ahahaha

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

The Internet is serious business

 

[skeptik]

Based on THIS STATEMENT ALONE: ok, let's use some of your own BULLSHIT rationale against YOU, eh? So, you're walking to your car from a gig in Anywhere, USA, and Joe dickhead pulls a piece on you and demands your money. You give it to him and he demands more.....you tell him you have no more, he SHOOTS YOU IN THE HEAD because he ASSUMES you're lying. Now where does that leave your argument? If you think this doesn't happen, I have many friends who will verify that it DOES, stupid. GET OUT OF YOUR FUCKING SHELL AND REALIZE WHAT WORLD WE LIVE IN. I see it all the time..something tells me you read about it in the papers and sympathize with the criminal.

My situations had asshole on powertrips with illegal guns, YOU are trying to make a case against ALL guns because you're a fucking kid who obviously hasn't had the "right people come at you yet. Talk your fucking shit in my city, asshole...go to downtown Chicago, NY, LA, or hell...even NOLA acting like you will tell everyojne with a gun that they're wrong.

Apparently you don't even know what I'm arguing if you think that 1) that little example of yours refutes my argument and 2) that I'm opposed to all guns. I have said neither of these, and I don't know where the fuck you're getting this bullshit from. My argument is against the excessive use of force, namely lethal force in situations where you're not in an obvious threat of death.

First, your retarded example. If this person is determined enough to shoot a liar from the get go, he's most likely going to shoot you before you even get a chance to get a gun aimed at him. But if you were able to pull a gun on this person and defend yourself, good for you. I don't know why you assume that I would have a problem with this. Maybe because you're fucking stupid and assuming bullshit arguments that you think I would make based on your biased position that you have on "dang liberals", or so I'm assuming. But anyway, chances are this guy is going to blow your teeth through the back of your head, regardless of whether or not you have a gun.

Now your other retarded statement.

My situations had asshole on powertrips with illegal guns

In situations with assholes on powertrips, it's most likely that they're going to shoot you before you get your gun out anyway.

YOU are trying to make a case against ALL guns

No I'm not, and you're fucking stupid for assuming this based on my prior posts.

because you're a fucking kid who obviously hasn't had the "right people come at you yet.

First of all, my being a 21 year old "kid" has nothing to do with my ability to propose a valid argument on the merits of lethal force in various situations. Secondly, you would be wrong to assume that I've never encountered any of these "right" people you speak of. Where do you think I live, in some rich, white, gated community? Half of my city could be accurately described as a ghetto.

Talk your fucking shit in my city, asshole...go to downtown Chicago, NY, LA, or hell...even NOLA acting like you will tell everyojne with a gun that they're wrong.

Why the fuck would I tell everyone with a gun that they're wrong? I don't fucking think that, so I would be lying if I said that. My god, how stupid can you fucking be? I honestly don't know how the fuck you arrived at this conclusion based on what I've said before.

And seriously, cut the shit with your macho posturing bullshit, it makes you look like a gigantic faggot. "Talk your shit in my city"? Who the fuck are you, Shaft?

EDIT:

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? No, dude, they're very NICE people with circumstances that make them do what they do, but DON'T WORRY....they don't mean it.

MORON.

 

[skeptik]

For my part, I think people need to be made an example of. Crime is high because people know they can do whatever they want; I am not saying we should shoot unarmed people or kill if we do not feel we have to; but when someone enters a stranger's house and gets shot it sends a message to criminals. "Perhaps I should not go around pointing guns at people"; "Perhaps I should stay out of other people's houses". Instead they know that most people are the "love your enemies" type (not saying you guys are) and will likely fold.

People die all the time; good people who don't deserve it. Try to save the people who are worth saving. I don't see how you guys can stand there with a gun in your face and think "maybe he doesn't mean to kill me". I am thinking "give me an opening". No, you do not always have to shoot him, you can tackle and beat the shit out of him, but my point is that they have to learn that citizens will not back down and wimper for their lives. Make the criminals the weak party and not the citizens. I am not giving up my wallet.

I agree with this. The only argument I've been making all along is when it's appropriate to use lethal force. Of course you're perfectly within your right to defend yourself against someone who is trying to rob you or harm you in some way. You don't have to stand idly by just because you can't shoot somebody.

 

[waif]

In fact, it's cool enough down here that if someone is stealing shit out of your car and is facing you (coming towards you), you may use lethal force to protect your belongings. "Imminent danger" has a broader definition in Texas, thankfully.

You're right, it's definitely good that it's easier to kill something with no consequences.

I can't even begin to fathom the kind of sympathy WAIF is trying to put across for perpetrators in this world. Sure you don't want to a defense attorney one day? When your best response to me is "you're an idiot" because I won't lay down and allow someone to commit an act of violence or theft upon me....I do believe YOU are the one with problems, man. It is no one's RIGHT (regardless of whatever bullshit reasons one would like to come up with for why) to steal from another person. Anything, at any time, and that's not even including WITH A WEAPON. Whole 'nother ball game, my friend.

Which is worse, killing or stealing?
Killing, right?
So if he tries to steal from you and you kill him, who's more in the wrong?
You.

Woah.....really? You still don't get it. If a perp is willing to use lethal force to commit a crime against you, your pacifist view of how to handle the situation is not always the smart one.

Weapon =/= intent to kill

During these instances, I did not have a sidearm on me, or else the outcome would have been different.

Right. Someone pulled a weapon on you, you didn't have a gun, and no one got hurt. But if you had had a gun, as you say, someone would probably have died. So how can you think it's a good thing to have a gun?

So someone draws a gun on you and demands money....so you give it to them...and they still shoot you because you're an IDIOT. Well...where does that leave you? Full of anti-gun sentiment and still DEADER THAN A DOORNAIL.

Or, more likely, you give them your money and then go home.
But lets say you had a gun. Someone comes up to you with a gun in their hand. You go for your gun. They shoot you before you can get to it, because YOU'RE NOT A FUCKING COWBOY. Then they take your stuff.

You think criminals will rob you and NOT shoot you? In my city alone , I could provide you with the annual (legitamate) statistics to prove you wrong. The little faggoty gangbangers here have shot UNARMED WOMEN WHO GAVE THEM EVERYTHING THEY HAD ( in stores not 20 yards from my former residence). So what was your fucking point again? Oh, nothing....that's right. Get a clue or be a bitch, dude.

A: You live in a shitty city
B: See above, your chances aren't much better with a gun unless you walk around with it drawn all the time
C: That's not the norm

So, you're walking to your car from a gig in Anywhere, USA, and Joe dickhead pulls a piece on you and demands your money. You give it to him and he demands more.....you tell him you have no more, he SHOOTS YOU IN THE HEAD because he ASSUMES you're lying

Or maybe he doesn't because he's not a psychotic?

I have many friends who will verify that it DOES, stupid. GET OUT OF YOUR FUCKING SHELL AND REALIZE WHAT WORLD WE LIVE IN. I see it all the time..something tells me you read about it in the papers and sympathize with the criminal.

These friends of yours wouldn't happen to be alcoholic redneck gun nuts, would they?

Talk your fucking shit in my city, asshole...go to downtown Chicago, NY, LA, or hell...even NOLA acting like you will tell everyojne with a gun that they're wrong.

What?
Okay, first off, anywhere where you get beat up for opposing guns is what we call redneck country.
Secondly, what the fuck are you talking about?

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? No, dude, they're very NICE people with circumstances that make them do what they do, but DON'T WORRY....they don't mean it.

Um...actually, a lot of people get drawn up into crime because they need money. You seem to assume that every mugger out there is a serial killer hell bent on massacring white people.

For my part, I think people need to be made an example of. Crime is high because people know they can do whatever they want; I am not saying we should shoot unarmed people or kill if we do not feel we have to; but when someone enters a stranger's house and gets shot it sends a message to criminals. "Perhaps I should not go around pointing guns at people"; "Perhaps I should stay out of other people's houses". Instead they know that most people are the "love your enemies" type (not saying you guys are) and will likely fold.

Robbery is not a capital crime, therefore robbers should not be killed. End of story.

I don't see how you guys can stand there with a gun in your face and think "maybe he doesn't mean to kill me".

Logic. He has no reason to want to kill me and plenty of reasons not to.

I am thinking "give me an opening". No, you do not always have to shoot him, you can tackle and beat the shit out of him

Okay. Sure. No problem with that.
But this is a gun discussion.

they have to learn that citizens will not back down and wimper for their lives.

They will, though...Let's be honest with ourselves, someone points a gun at you, you'll give him your damn wallet.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Logic. He has no reason to want to kill me and plenty of reasons not to.

Logic. It doesn't always apply, especially when other people don't use it.

 

[waif]

Right. Forget I was talking with rednecks.