this place is very hypocritical

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was about to use an argument explaining that the purpose of sex is to reproduce. However, you seem to have cut it off. I agree in principle that the breeding of humans is getting out of hand. You also reached that conclusion, but then you got lost. The answer isn't homosexuality, it's eugenics. People need to adopt more intelligent sexual practices.

That certainly would be ideal, but since nobody would be willing to comply, I'd say homosexuality is easier. :) And before you retort with the typical Demiurge remark, no, we cannot FORCE the individuals to conform. Not everyone shares your impracticable one-sided beliefs.

The idea that it's "preference" is patently absurd. It is, like other traits, a result of a person's genetics and experience.

Well pardon my blasphemous dissidence, oh mighty Tsar, but I happen to believe that the very notion of a person's genetics or experience playing some role in determining their sexuality is as absurd as it is impertinent. Somebody commented earlier, I believe it was lord667, that the study of homosexuality's cause is relevant because solid evidence that corroborates the theory of naturality would aid them in earning their rights as citizens. Assume for a second that it is once held scientifically evident that homosexuality is not a choice or preference, but rather a genetic discrepency. Imagine that the evidence is conclusive and irrefutable. Can a politician not viably condemn them now? Is the tiresome controversy laid to rest? Absolutely not, seeing as there is no legitimate basis in the constitution for the exclusion of ANY human beings from their rights. Homosexuals still have a right to choose their orientation, if it is indeed choice. The discovery of a biological discrepency attributed to homosexuality would A)obtrusively seem like more bullshit republican propaganda, and B) strengthen the ridiculous argument that "homosexuality is a disease"-and what a harrowing disease it must be, watch out cancer.

I think in our hearts we are all fascists, just that most understand the horror of being a slave on the receiving end.

Brilliantly stated.
 
Demiurge, you didnt defend yourself regarding your fascist eternal state leanings. I would like you to write what your form of ideal government is, and we can go from there. In fact, I am past trying to argue with you on fascisms positive and negatives. I would just like to learn what you are fighting for? I promise to not ridicule whatever you write, but its hard to understand where you are coming from, with just a handful of responses.
 
Not exactly impracticible, more like unpopular.

Homosexuality is the result of mutations in genes that control pheremone and hormone production and reception. Probably, it is a result of multiple recessive traits and the child's rearing. Your identity is determined by your experience and genetics. Your decision making is the product of a complex interaction of the two. Also, note that all sorts of things are genetic that seem absurd, the ability to roll one's tongue, left-handedness, etc. To argue that homosexuality can't be genetic because "c'mon! just c'mon!" is the empiricist's folly.

You seem to be immensely confused. Gays are the ones who want homosexuality to be genetic, not conservatives.

Who the hell is stopping them from being gay?
 
I totally agree with Demiurge here. I fail to see how sexual preference can be simply controlled by something as voluntary an action as making up one's mind. Sexual attraction is involuntary. All the people that have loved 'teh pussy' as a kid and then 'teh peenie' as an adult were probbaly emotionally repressed by a society that, up until recently, shoved heterosexuality down everyone's throat from childhood. Their apparent reversal of sexual orientation is a realization of their identity, not a "switch."

Although homosexuality can be perceived as a disease(it officially was until the 1950's), it is not crippling(unless your boyfriend's Yao Ming), not contagious(regardless of what some San Fran bath-house owners will have you believe), and not harmful to society in any dangerous manner(other than pining for open-mindedness). No senator can ever prove otherwise. We're not talking about cancer here.

As far as natural or normal, homosexuality is 100% natural. Gays and lesbians aren't factory-made. It is, however, an anomaly as far as reproduction goes, and therefore not 'normal.' However, anyone who has been a part of UM for any amount of time knows that 'normal' does not exist.
 
I'd like to take this time to apologize for every post I've ever contributed. I also apologize in advance for any future post. I realize ever year that my former self of just one year past was much more retarded than my current self. I believe this will be a continuing trend.

That is all.
 
Life Sucks said:
I do believe that homosexuality is genetic. It's just odd that humans are the only species where it seems to occur.
It's odd that any educated or worldly person could say something like that. Homosexuality in various animal species is becoming a widely documented and reported area of zoological science.
 
I hate christians, faggots, blacks, jews, indians, muslims, atheists, white people, 99% of all country musicians, rap and pop musicians.

Yet I like Extol, Elton John, Jerry Seinfeld, any Indian named after a river, Bin Laden, atheist, crackers, Dwight Yoakam, Public Enemy and U2. Guess Im a hypocrite.


Stupid thread by an ignorant person. End.
 
Life Sucks said:
I do believe that homosexuality is genetic. It's just odd that humans are the only species where it seems to occur.
I used to think the same thing. Then I started dating a person in the veternary field. She brought to my attention, after I said something about people being gay, that male/female dogs show gay tendencies too. Then I got to thinking....they do. I thought about the many times Ive seen male dogs try to hump other male dogs. Coincidence? I believe not.
 
gay.jpg
 
SculptedCold said:
It's odd that any educated or worldly person could say something like that. Homosexuality in various animal species is becoming a widely documented and reported area of zoological science.

But again, read Desmond Morris, one of the most interesting author in zoology. Homosexuality, just alike masturbation, is something animals do practice. But, in certain situations only. Say, you put a gorilla in a cage alone for a long time. He will masturbate. Same thing for the female. Then if they decide to put both this male and female together, they will keep on masterbating. If you put 2 males in a cage, chances are they will turn homosexual. We've heard many times about homosexual ducks. Often, the reason is as simple as "they are no females around".

Many things only occur in human civilization. But can happen when you put an animal in a Zoo, in a cage or you try to domesticate it. For instance, suicide is also only part of the human behavior. But animals may suicide as well when domesticated, put into a zoo.

The book is called "The Human Zoo" and the author is Desmond Morris. Brilliant book, extremely entertaining reading (I've read it 3 times). Also, "The Naked Ape", another study of the man as an animal.

http://www.desmond-morris.com/

That's his official webpage, he's also a surrealistic painter.
 
Allow me to address a number of issues here. Firstly, animals are not, in any way, shape, or form, akin to humans with the exception of the obvious fact that they both constitute living organisms. An animal operates on sheer primal-instinct. A human being is expected to rely on reason in order to execute a decision (although it's unfortunate how very few of us take advantage of this innate ability). An animal's genetic string/ DNA is not NEARLY as complex as that of a human's. Have you ever sighted a bear with an appearance entirely unique from another of the same species? I think not.
Which leads me to another issue, Demiurge's surmisal that genetics and experience are fully responsible for an individual's sexual orientation. I find it quite amusing how one can state such precarious assumptions with such adamant certainty. Since Demiurge seems so intent on consolidating his assertion, I'll provide him a more elaborate rebuttle, to which I'm almost certain he'll retort with something along the lines of "You're wrong because you are."

Yes, the ability to roll one's tongue and possess unequivalent dexterity in their hands are determined by genes. However, these traits are all characteristics that hold themselves PHYSICALLY EVIDENT, the same as every other genetic trait. Granted, physical attributes are not all that is determined by genetics, as it is scientifically accepted that conditions such as diabetes, as well as diseases, can be transmitted from parent to offspring. The same can be said about mental or physical defects. Still, these all possess a single common quality. THEY ARE ALL GENETIC EFFECTS THAT CAN BE PRAGMATICALLY STUDIED AND CONFIRMED.

The same, however, cannot be said about homosexuality. You cannot look at a person and infer that they are homosexual, unless they are taking the liberty to flaunt it. You cannot scrutinize a person's genetic makeup and deduce this either. In fact, it is impossible to accurately construe one's personality as homosexual or heterosexual unless they disclose it themselves. The concept of one's sexuality is so intangible that it baffles me how such a great many people can suggest that one's attraction for a particular gender is concretely genetic.

Think about it. Realistically, sexual desire is nothing but the natural, animalistic lust for someone's flesh and reproductive organs.There are people, however, who prefer another variety of flesh, or even stern stoics who don't appreciate sex or sensuality at all (or perhaps they do yet choose to repress it). Of course, there are people with hormonal deficiencies which affect their ability to experience sexual desire. This could direct individuals into concluding that lust is a natural, biological characteristic, hindered only by a defect in one's sex-drive, or hormones. Indeed, it is scientifically proven that desire is a standard biological singularity. One's preferred object of lust, however, is not.

This can be correlated with the manner in which one PREFERS to be stimulated. We can all affirm that we all enjoy stimulation and pleasure, because pleasure itself is caused by endorphins that are released from the brain which invariably creates a positive reaction. We all have disparate ways in which we like to be stimulated though. This is a given, since some of us enjoy anal sex, whereas some do not, some prefer receiving a blowjob over performing oral sex, while some prefer the latter, etc., etc. Of course, this is all a matter of preference, which I will agree is decided by experience as well as number of other factors, but NOT BY ANY MEANS GENETICS. There is no genetic code for liking blowjobs as far as I know.

Thus, if only by assimilation, I would conjecture that while lust for another individual is usually unavoidable (unless you encompass a firm will and insist on being asexual), your choice of individual, is impalpable and abstract, regardless of gender. I'm staunchly reluctant to believe that one can factually state otherwise. To claim that it is a genetic misfire is preposterous. What about bisexuals? Is there a genetic defect for them as well, and if so, what are the logistics behind it? I myself am heterosexual, but I do not wrap my identity around the fact that I am heterosexual. I do not believe that it is the result of genetic stability. I simply like women sexually, and am aversed to men. No, I did not choose to be heterosexual, but then, I did not choose many other preferences as well, such as the fact that I like chocolate but not vanilla, that I like dogs rather than cats, etc. I'm pretty sure that it's the case with homosexuals as well, that it was not a choice, but a habitual affinity for the same sex. It's inexplicable, but then so are many other concepts, such as love, anger, and other emotional characteristics.

Homosexuality in various animal species is becoming a widely documented and reported area of zoological science.

Yes indeed, but as I mentioned prior, animals do not behave similar to humans. When an animal engages in intercourse with a member of the same sex, I really don't think too much of it. It's instinct. I'm pretty sure they enjoy pleasure as well, and it's dubious that they would mind fucking a member of the same sex ocassionally.

You seem to be immensely confused. Gays are the ones who want homosexuality to be genetic, not conservatives.

Actually, my friend, it seems you may have misread. I merely rejected the notion that conservatives would back down from condemning homosexuals if the homosexuals manage to prove something in their favor, like the theory that it is natural. The line "a) would seem like bullshit republican propaganda" was a fairly obvious typographical error, being that it contradicts the last few lines I had written. Replace "republican" with "democrat," if it helps you grasp my message more clearly.
 
DiscipleOfPlato said:
Allow me to address a number of issues here. Firstly, animals are not, in any way, shape, or form, akin to humans with the exception of the obvious fact that they both constitute living organisms. An animal operates on sheer primal-instinct. A human being is expected to rely on reason in order to execute a decision (although it's unfortunate how very few of us take advantage of this innate ability). An animal's genetic string/ DNA is not NEARLY as complex as that of a human's. Have you ever sighted a bear with an appearance entirely unique from another of the same species? I think not.

The human being is the most complex and intelligent animal. That is what separates it. It's not the ability to reason, but the degree of the ability. A chimp can "reason."

Which leads me to another issue, Demiurge's surmisal that genetics and experience are fully responsible for an individual's sexual orientation. I find it quite amusing how one can state such precarious assumptions with such adamant certainty. Since Demiurge seems so intent on consolidating his assertion, I'll provide him a more elaborate rebuttle, to which I'm almost certain he'll retort with something along the lines of "You're wrong because you are."

Yes, the ability to roll one's tongue and possess unequivalent dexterity in their hands are determined by genes. However, these traits are all characteristics that hold themselves PHYSICALLY EVIDENT, the same as every other genetic trait. Granted, physical attributes are not all that is determined by genetics, as it is scientifically accepted that conditions such as diabetes, as well as diseases, can be transmitted from parent to offspring. The same can be said about mental or physical defects. Still, these all possess a single common quality. THEY ARE ALL GENETIC EFFECTS THAT CAN BE PRAGMATICALLY STUDIED AND CONFIRMED.

The same, however, cannot be said about homosexuality. You cannot look at a person and infer that they are homosexual, unless they are taking the liberty to flaunt it. You cannot scrutinize a person's genetic makeup and deduce this either. In fact, it is impossible to accurately construe one's personality as homosexual or heterosexual unless they disclose it themselves. The concept of one's sexuality is so intangible that it baffles me how such a great many people can suggest that one's attraction for a particular gender is concretely genetic.

This would seems reasonable, but it's simply not rational to use your premise as irrefutable truth. Personality disorders are hereditary, and to my knowledge, like homosexuality, no one even knows what the hell causes them exactly. You cannot scrutinize a person's genetic material and diagnose him as being afflicted with antisocial personality disorder, for example. It's not caused by a chemical imbalance. Nevertheless, all studies point to these things being hereditary.

Think about it. Realistically, sexual desire is nothing but the natural, animalistic lust for someone's flesh and reproductive organs.There are people, however, who prefer another variety of flesh, or even stern stoics who don't appreciate sex or sensuality at all (or perhaps they do yet choose to repress it). Of course, there are people with hormonal deficiencies which affect their ability to experience sexual desire. This could direct individuals into concluding that lust is a natural, biological characteristic, hindered only by a defect in one's sex-drive, or hormones. Indeed, it is scientifically proven that desire is a standard biological singularity. One's preferred object of lust, however, is not.

This can be correlated with the manner in which one PREFERS to be stimulated. We can all affirm that we all enjoy stimulation and pleasure, because pleasure itself is caused by endorphins that are released from the brain which invariably creates a positive reaction. We all have disparate ways in which we like to be stimulated though.

Sexual pleasure is an evolutionary effect for reproductive purposes.

This is a given, since some of us enjoy anal sex, whereas some do not, some prefer receiving a blowjob over performing oral sex, while some prefer the latter, etc., etc. Of course, this is all a matter of preference, which I will agree is decided by experience as well as number of other factors, but NOT BY ANY MEANS GENETICS. There is no genetic code for liking blowjobs as far as I know.

Thus, if only by assimilation, I would conjecture that while lust for another individual is usually unavoidable (unless you encompass a firm will and insist on being asexual), your choice of individual, is impalpable and abstract, regardless of gender. I'm staunchly reluctant to believe that one can factually state otherwise. To claim that it is a genetic misfire is preposterous. What about bisexuals? Is there a genetic defect for them as well, and if so, what are the logistics behind it? I myself am heterosexual, but I do not wrap my identity around the fact that I am heterosexual. I do not believe that it is the result of genetic stability. I simply like women sexually, and am aversed to men. No, I did not choose to be heterosexual, but then, I did not choose many other preferences as well, such as the fact that I like chocolate but not vanilla, that I like dogs rather than cats, etc. I'm pretty sure that it's the case with homosexuals as well, that it was not a choice, but a habitual affinity for the same sex. It's inexplicable, but then so are many other concepts, such as love, anger, and other emotional characteristics.



Yes indeed, but as I mentioned prior, animals do not behave similar to humans. When an animal engages in intercourse with a member of the same sex, I really don't think too much of it. It's instinct. I'm pretty sure they enjoy pleasure as well, and it's dubious that they would mind fucking a member of the same sex ocassionally.



Actually, my friend, it seems you may have misread. I merely rejected the notion that conservatives would back down from condemning homosexuals if the homosexuals manage to prove something in their favor, like the theory that it is natural. The line "a) would seem like bullshit republican propaganda" was a fairly obvious typographical error, being that it contradicts the last few lines I had written. Replace "republican" with "democrat," if it helps you grasp my message more clearly.

It is most certainly genetics or experience because that is all there is to your personality, your identity, or whatever you wish to call it. A popular theory these days is that the mother's hormone flux impacts the sexuality of the fetus.

I have discovered that this discussion is utterly semantical. The fact is that we both think that external factors are responsible for this "preference" as you wish to call it. The thing that keeps me posting back is that you occasionally seem to switch gears and say that it's "choice", which I interpret as spontaneous, which seems contradictory to your other statements and is definitely divervent from my own beliefs. A mountain out of a mole hill, if you will.

I don't believe I ever asserted that your ever little decision was solely hereditary. A preference for dogs, for example would seem entirely based upon experience.
 
Well this argument is most interesting these days, but sadly i am starting to agree with demiurge, everyone is arguing semantics. I still would like Demiurge to explain his political beliefs/ideal government- its not every day one meets a intelligent nazi.
 
I believe this quarrel has been exhausted, but I wish to awknowledge a few issues concerning Demiurge's response.

The human being is the most complex and intelligent animal. That is what separates it. It's not the ability to reason, but the degree of the ability. A chimp can "reason."

You are correct, but this statement is common universal knowledge, and is irrelevant. I am fully aware of a chimp's ability to "reason." Forgive me for neglecting to be so precise.

This would seems reasonable, but it's simply not rational to use your premise as irrefutable truth. Personality disorders are hereditary, and to my knowledge, like homosexuality, no one even knows what the hell causes them exactly. You cannot scrutinize a person's genetic material and diagnose him as being afflicted with antisocial personality disorder, for example. It's not caused by a chemical imbalance. Nevertheless, all studies point to these things being hereditary.

I never claimed that it is completely irrefutable. And, not to be crude, but the majority of personality disorders are undetectable simply because they're fallacious. The personality of a human being occupies complex habits and tendencies, which are almost always inexplicable. You can't label antisocial behavior as a personality disorder unless you're a medical fraud. There seems to be an "abnormal" personality disorder for any condition or manner of social conduct these days, and I personally, think it's bullshit.

Sexual pleasure is an evolutionary effect for reproductive purposes.

Wonderful. Irrelevant, though.

It is most certainly genetics or experience because that is all there is to your personality, your identity, or whatever you wish to call it.

Experience, yes. Genetics, no.

I have discovered that this discussion is utterly semantical. The fact is that we both think that external factors are responsible for this "preference" as you wish to call it. The thing that keeps me posting back is that you occasionally seem to switch gears and say that it's "choice", which I interpret as spontaneous, which seems contradictory to your other statements and is definitely divervent from my own beliefs. A mountain out of a mole hill, if you will.

Fair enough. However, isn't personal choice conceived of from one's experience? The two are linked, hence I did not contradict myself.
I do suppose that everything stems from experience, everything from choice(such as the choice to exist homosexually and pursue a relationship with the same sex) to perspective (such as my preference for dogs).
 
Something such as borderline personality disorder is as much a mental illness as any that can be identified as chemical. I'm at fault for using the wrong example. Alcoholism is another example of something that genetics predispose people to acquire. What genes are responsible exactly are, of course, unknown. I'm disagreeing with your point that genetic effects can be pragmatically confirmed and revealed by genetic scrutiny.

As for your comment that "genetics, yes. experience, no.", I again must disagree. Your genetics are what determine how you react and are molded by your experience.

Speed, I didn't really want to interject that into this conversation. Perhaps, I will create a topic for it.
 
I don't see why it can't become part of the discussion. You're talking about determinism, right?

Each person is a combination of their genetics and their experience. However, although this predisposes certain character traits and susceptibility to certain diseases, it cannot fully account for every facet of an individual. Some traits have been known to show up in people which are found to come from neither. I think allergies are one, not sure though.

I believe in partial determinism. A degree of the person is predetermined and parameters set. But certain people do break those parameters. It's all up to God, I suppose...
 
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