Update- studio and new album!

[~Derek~]

If the album is as good as Epic, I won't mind. If It's as bad as Empiricism, Borknagar will no longer be my favorite band.

I hope Oystein feels pressured. Even mentioning the first four albums sets the bar damn high for this one weather he wants it to sound like them or not.

Interesting you say that, I've preferred the Empiricism material over the Epic material and would like a change back to that album style. The best material I've heard from Borknagar was the more black metal-oriented Garm stuff, but I highly doubt they're going back to that, so Empiricism it is,

 

[Naglfar]

There's a big difference between Borky and a band like Metallica... Borky's gone in a direction that makes some fans unhappy but others are very content. The musicianship is still there, which makes the issue of opinion and taste more relevant.

In Metallica's case... well, a dysfunctional band with perhaps less musically talented members in the lineup (re: Lars) being influential in the music writing process, the lead singer's out of control drug problems (by his own admission), and their 15+ years of producing music that was specifically aimed, produced, and packaged to be a commercial effort rather than a creative one... I don't think that the comparison is fair. Not because it's a negative comparison, but the bands don't have the same career arc.

I'm not saying all opinions are equal and relevant, but the specific comparison is not relevant.

 

[Defiance]

From opposite ends of the fandom spectrum we do come to an agreement.

There's a big difference between Borky and a band like Metallica... Borky's gone in a direction that makes some fans unhappy but others are very content. The musicianship is still there, which makes the issue of opinion and taste more relevant.

In Metallica's case... well, a dysfunctional band with perhaps less musically talented members in the lineup (re: Lars) being influential in the music writing process, the lead singer's out of control drug problems (by his own admission), and their 15+ years of producing music that was specifically aimed, produced, and packaged to be a commercial effort rather than a creative one... I don't think that the comparison is fair. Not because it's a negative comparison, but the bands don't have the same career arc.

I'm not saying all opinions are equal and relevant, but the specific comparison is not relevant.

I totally agree, two bands that are different in almost every sense.

 

[Zephyrus]

There's a big difference between Borky and a band like Metallica... Borky's gone in a direction that makes some fans unhappy but others are very content. The musicianship is still there, which makes the issue of opinion and taste more relevant.

In Metallica's case... well, a dysfunctional band with perhaps less musically talented members in the lineup (re: Lars) being influential in the music writing process, the lead singer's out of control drug problems (by his own admission), and their 15+ years of producing music that was specifically aimed, produced, and packaged to be a commercial effort rather than a creative one... I don't think that the comparison is fair. Not because it's a negative comparison, but the bands don't have the same career arc.

I think my comparison is perfectly fair. You just don't think so because you like later Borknagar while not liking later Metallica.

Both bands' first four albums were securely rooted in a specific sound (Metallica - thrash, Bork - black), and developed a somewhat progressive take on the their respective styles.

With the release of both bands' 5th albums (Metallica and Empircism), we see both bands adopted a more accessible sound, and consequently a significant increase in their fanbase. Both those "breakthrough (I won't say sell-out) albums", are much easier on the ears in terms of production (you cannot argue this). Metallica retrogressed their progressive style to a more rock-like formula, while Borknagar emphasized their vocal showcase and mostly abandoned the aggressive, darker elements of previous albums.

While obviously Metallica became universally popular, both bands increased in popularity by the same degree. Metallica was already the most popular thrash metal band in the 80's, so when they took on the entire hard-rock fanbase in the 90's, by such a factor was their popularity augmented.
Borknagar, on the other hand, were not at all the most representative band in Black Metal or any genre, but had a decent following that, once they brought in the popular Swedish folk artist, introduced non-Black Metal fans to Borknagar, and by that factor was Borknagar's popularity increased.

This comparison is perfectly fair, and in no way meant to cast either band into a negative light. It's all about what types of fans become drawn to the bands and what changes in the bands' styles allow certain fanbases to pay attention.

 

[Naglfar]

I don't think there's anything wrong with casting them in a negative light, if that's what you feel about the bands (I certainly feel that way about Metallica).

But the issue is not someone liking / disliking their later discographies; you say Borknagar made their sound more accessible, as did Metallica, and that's not true in the sense that the producers of the Black album and their other 90s albums specifically moved Metallica in the direction of popular music. If you look at the mini-documentary of Black and the more recent one (which is AWESOME and everyone should see it), it's pretty evident that Metallica has much, much more going on than creating music... and how they create their music is like exhibit A in what aspiring bands should not have their recording sessions look like (re: Lars making shit up and erupting on the guitarists). But especially on the Black album, which I actually like, and Load / Reload, the purpose was to release a commercially attractive Metallica album.

I just don't see that being the case with Borknagar. If you pay attention to the kind of side projects Oystein and Vintersorg produce (and I know you do, even if you don't like them), you can see that Borknagar's sound is in fact now greatly influenced by the musical direction of these two fellows. I don't think it's necessarily to sell records, which I'm sure they want to do also, but the stylistic change comes from the way they write their music, not the production.

And just so you understand, I'm not saying this to defend the band from your criticism for the sake of defending them because I like them. I like plenty of bands that are indefensible musically (re: Bad Religion). I just don't think the commercial angle is the reason their music sounds the way it does today.

 

[Zephyrus]

I don't think there's anything wrong with casting them in a negative light, if that's what you feel about the bands (I certainly feel that way about Metallica).

But the issue is not someone liking / disliking their later discographies; you say Borknagar made their sound more accessible, as did Metallica, and that's not true in the sense that the producers of the Black album and their other 90s albums specifically moved Metallica in the direction of popular music. If you look at the mini-documentary of Black and the more recent one (which is AWESOME and everyone should see it), it's pretty evident that Metallica has much, much more going on than creating music... and how they create their music is like exhibit A in what aspiring bands should not have their recording sessions look like (re: Lars making shit up and erupting on the guitarists). But especially on the Black album, which I actually like, and Load / Reload, the purpose was to release a commercially attractive Metallica album.

I just don't see that being the case with Borknagar. If you pay attention to the kind of side projects Oystein and Vintersorg produce (and I know you do, even if you don't like them), you can see that Borknagar's sound is in fact now greatly influenced by the musical direction of these two fellows. I don't think it's necessarily to sell records, which I'm sure they want to do also, but the stylistic change comes from the way they write their music, not the production.

You're taking motives into account. I'm only paying attention to effects. It is a fact that both bands greatly increased their fanbases by changing to more accessible sounds.

Beyond that it is completely subjective whether these changes are for better or worse. And as is clearly the case with BOTH bands, there become those who prefer the older style and vice versa, and then the moderates who like both.

Metallica's intentions were to sell out, and Borknagar's were to expand musically. These motives are different, but the outcomes, in terms of quantifiable popularity, were the same.

 

[Allfader]

It is a fact that both bands greatly increased their fanbases by changing to more accessible sounds.

I would say that is not completely true. I don't think 'Epic' as a very accesible album as any Metallica has released (Comparing a thrash/heavy/rock band with a Black/"folk"/progressive band has very few points to compare, doesnt?).
If we must to compare albums, TAC is so much more accesible and it's the less agressive Borky album IMO, since is has no blastbeats and is sung 80% with clean vocals, also I don't sense any 'darkness', nor 'evil' on it, so why TAC must be superior to Emp or Epic? (for Simen's clean vocals?).

Now with Vintersorg is more like 50-50% on the clean/grim vocals, the blastbeasts and double bass patters are somehow present on almost all songs with an overall fair speed (Epic is so much faster than Empiricism, TAC and even TOD, in fact it's like the Q level on terms of speed IMO) then where's the problem? The progressive path taken my the band is the reason of the lack of 'brutality'? could be the massive vocal harmonies done by Mr V and Lars the guilty? the crystal clean production? the less 'br00tal' grim vocal provided by Mr.V? maybe all of then, but what Borknagar is today is far better IMO than the most of plain 'dark/evil/tr00-kvlt' black metal around.

You're right. This band could write Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice and Vintersorg would still make it sound like a Disney cartoon.

Personally I think the Mr.V's vocals fit well with the actual Borknagar sound and songwriting. I enjoy the actual mix between the black and the progressive music, and neither Garm nor Simen could do a better job on the actual songs. What I like from Vintersorg's grim vocals is they are agressive enough to fit a black metal song on Borknagar, but are not so 'evil' nor br00tal to overwhelm the rest of the band or to give the wrong impression about the music, he has IMO an 'avantgarde' vocal tune, not a 'black metal' voice (Cornelius's latest vocal offerings comes to my mind with this sentence); also the lyric theme on Borknagar is very different than the rest of the black metal acts, so I don't see any reason to sound evil nor dark when the whole band concept doesn't fit with those adjectives. About his clean vocals, I think all of us (or most of us) are agreed he's absolutely great.

Even when I know it's just an example, I say Si Monumentum is boring IMO as the most DSO catalogue. It's not like I don't like that kind of music, just I don't like them or they has nothing who interests me a lot, the same goes with Limbonic Art. I just like some songs but I don't see myself listening an entire album. I prefer to hear both Sirius Albums instead LA. That's the good point of tastes...no one is right and at the same time all we are.

Metallica's intentions were to sell out, and Borknagar's were to expand musically. These motives are different, but the outcomes, in terms of quantifiable popularity, were the same.

So what? that's bad? I don't think Oystein has that in mind. If the band wanted to earn money, they could do endless tours like Dimmon Burger.

Could be the music quality and the impressive line-up (at least until when Asgeir was on the band...now without Asgeir the line up seems to be weaker but I think Dave will do a good work) one of the reasons that Borknagar is more popular now??

 

[Øystein G. Brun]

Greetings folks!

Just read this discussion going on here and I could not resist to drop by a small comment from my perspective....interesting discussion btw...!

First off I would say that any feedback is great and interesting. Or should I say: good feedback is great and negative feedback is interesting in a positive way. I have been in this business for quite some years now. We have got feedbacks that is a complete slaughter of our music and on the other hand descriptions of being something godlike(ahh...I don't like that word). Sometimes it amazes me how different peoples actually absorb music- that is really an interesting sosiological observasion in itself. Anyway, just to be completely clear- all opinions of our music is more than welcome here! So just shoot whatever direction that suits you...........;-)

Secondary I would say that I regard EVERYTHING as a part of nature. Myself, the band, my music, all of you and the rest of the world. In nature it is a matter of surviving and I play by the rules that my surrondings(the nature) comes up with. That also goes for my/our music. On every step I take musically, I always do what what is needed to survive. But for me surviving is not about money or selling records, it is solely about making music that makes me want to make more music. For me that is survival in musical terms.
In our career we have been at crossroads(albumwise and tourwise) where we potentially could have compremised commercially and earned allot more money, lived from music, huge tours, fame and so forth. To me that doesn't mean anything really- that is basically just based on greed, need for attention, advanced manipulation of peoples and so forth. Exploitation of the nature. I would not mind selling one million records. But I do not compremise one single inch with my/our music in order to achive something like that or whatever. In that case our "mission" would been false- to the contrary BORKNAGAR is ALL about making honest, etherial and heartfelt music. You should not doubt that!

Does it make sense? Maybe not... But this is atleast the cards I am playing with.

Thanx for the devotion and the attention!

 

[Alteredmindeath]

very cool perspective Oystein!

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

*nods*

Oystein is a great man. I hope he realizes without a metal album since Epic we're just edgy. Perhaps some of us are afraid.

 

[Naglfar]

I would not mind selling one million records. But I do not compremise one single inch with my/our music in order to achive something like that or whatever. In that case our "mission" would been false- to the contrary BORKNAGAR is ALL about making honest, etherial and heartfelt music. You should not doubt that!

This is exactly what I was saying! This is why Borknagar still rocks, and will always rock.

 

[jamj1974]

Borkanagar it´s all about honest music..that´s for sure, that´s what made them so special and unique.

 

[SiMuLaCrUm]

Very good view of music, and arguably one that is not easy to keep. It's good to see bands and such still using that view, rather than focusing more on money and selling albums. This is what making music should be all about, not selling albums and becoming rich and famous.

 

[Det Som Engang Var]

I was going to not say anything, but do you honestly think Borky could be much more successful than Enslaved right now if they "sold out"? Get real, Borknagar is underground until the very end, regardless of what "changes" or "selling out" Oystein could have done. This band is compromised of Norwegian middle aged fathers for fucks sake they aren't going to be dancing or rapping, and playing metalcore sure as hell wouldn't guarantee popularity.

 

[Qu Appelle]

I was going to not say anything, but do you honestly think Borky could be much more successful than Enslaved right now if they "sold out"?

They could have if Asgeir was still in the band.

He was the Dreamy One.

 

[KRaEzTaIuRmED]

I think the only person who questions Borknagar from a selling out point of view is Zephyrus, to anyone else it's pretty laughable. To him everyone agreeing or liking something with Vintersorg on it makes us fanboys, even though people give critisims all the time. The only difference is when we express our point we don't go on about it like a broken record, or try act superior to everyone else.

 

[Azzor1911]

While I do believe that Borknagar is all about making honest, etherial and heartfelt music, I don't really agree that selling lots of albums and touring every once in a while is basically just based on greed and need for attention. It would only be fair to give those thousands of non-Norwegian fans a chance to see you perform live in their neighbourhood, it's been 10 years since the last tour!!! Then again, I understand that doing so would mean they would have to leave their families for a pretty long time which is a valid reason to stop touring at all if they'd rather not do that.

 

[Øystein G. Brun]

My point is that the moment an artist compremise musically/artistically/bandwise to meet commercial interests, it dosen't really deals about the music anymore in my point of view. It's about selling a product. I have never been a salesman and if selling records was my intention, I would be better of starting up a record store or something....;-)

Obviously different artists have different motives for their activity. I respect that, but I still have an impression that the scene today is very much about everything else that the music itselves. Those who gain big success to day is not nessearly the bands that make the best music, but those who best know how to establish networks, lick the asses of the journos, jump onto trends, boobs/devil on the cover and so on. Much the same mechanism that you find in the pop industry. Fair enough, but I miss the good old days when metal was all about passion and honasty.

We would love to play shows for every single one of you guy's, but there are reasons for us not being able to do that as frequently as we probably should. But, we might pop some news soon that might please some of you...;-)

 

[Undefined]

My point is that the moment an artist compremise musically/artistically/bandwise to meet commercial interests, it dosen't really deals about the music anymore in my point of view. It's about selling a product. I have never been a salesman and if selling records was my intention, I would be better of starting up a record store or something....;-)

Obviously different artists have different motives for their activity. I respect that, but I still have an impression that the scene today is very much about everything else that the music itselves. Those who gain big success to day is not nessearly the bands that make the best music, but those who best know how to establish networks, lick the asses of the journos, jump onto trends, boobs/devil on the cover and so on. Much the same mechanism that you find in the pop industry. Fair enough, but I miss the good old days when metal was all about passion and honasty.

And you're right in every way, and I respect that. Unfortunately having that kind of self-respect and values doesn't really get you ahead in life anymore it seems, whether you're a musician or a store clerk. I wish that more people would recognize the kind of sacrifice involved in maintaining your own personal virtues. But if you're happy with yourself and your actions that is all that matters in the end

We would love to play shows for every single one of you guy's, but there are reasons for us not being able to do that as frequently as we probably should. But, we might pop some news soon that might please some of you...;-)

My greatest wish from the band is that you come to North America someday, hopefully someone near me in Canada Montreal seems like a great place for you guys! There is a new festival there called HEAVTY MTL that you should look into

 

[Defiance]

My point is that the moment an artist compremise musically/artistically/bandwise to meet commercial interests, it dosen't really deals about the music anymore in my point of view. It's about selling a product. I have never been a salesman and if selling records was my intention, I would be better of starting up a record store or something....;-)

Obviously different artists have different motives for their activity. I respect that, but I still have an impression that the scene today is very much about everything else that the music itselves. Those who gain big success to day is not nessearly the bands that make the best music, but those who best know how to establish networks, lick the asses of the journos, jump onto trends, boobs/devil on the cover and so on. Much the same mechanism that you find in the pop industry. Fair enough, but I miss the good old days when metal was all about passion and honasty.

We would love to play shows for every single one of you guy's, but there are reasons for us not being able to do that as frequently as we probably should. But, we might pop some news soon that might please some of you...;-)

I agree with what you said on the post and the previous one. I guess due to piracy many bands have the need to put some boobs on the cover in order to sell because if they don't they wouldn't survive.

Aughhh I hate the Century Media newsletter, they show all these bands that have some girls in provocative poses. I'm trying to remember one particular band..., was it Sonic Syndicate? Damn I hate that band so much.

About the last part, the thing is that most of the people that post here are fanboys/groupies that would really love to see Borknagar live. And since you tour every thousand years ( n.- ), not being able to go to the last one makes us even more anxious. At least that's my case. Anyhow, North-Americans here have more chance of seeing Bork, I doubt you'd ever come to Latin-America.

But the hint you're giving there makes me happy!