What is your favorite song of In flames???

[eochaid]

It's not as if Benson is forcing them to produce shitty music or to come with copycats instead of original ideas.

As I see it, it looks more as if they're releasing new albums because they have to, not because they have the passion to create new music.

 

[Xpyro125]

Yeah, I don't think anything before Battles could really be them selling out. I know, the argument could be made for Reroute, but it was still a really good album. I wouldn't say it's nearly as good as any of the classic albums, but when its highlights were on, that's where you'd get them at their best. I never once got that with Battles. And yeah, he is ultimately just the producer, so yeah, he only gets so much input. Still quite a bit, but at the end of the day, it's down to what the band (Or label) says they want. I doubt Battles and ITM were products of what the label pushed for. We've seen them when they don't want to do the work in terms of publicity surrounding it, and it's evident that they were actually proud of Battles. Now that's delusion. I'd like to think "Slow Decay" was written before THE's announcement (As the album-making process had to take at least a year), but you never know. There's so much speculation around In Flames and THE right now that it actually brought back a curious audience to see what In Flames'll do and how they match up again 'true In Flames' (Not that I completely disagree with the sentiment of calling them true IF). If they did make anything from their new album as a reaction to that, I think it's less of a reaction to THE themselves and moreso to the people who have come in droves, eager to just form and sort of opinion and judgement. In a way, that kind of 'competition' can make people hungry to impress their full audience.

I actually don't think the production of TJR hampers the album all too badly. It's something that irks me a little bit, but that's just because I'm a selectively picky bastard. That being said, could you imagine if we got TJR 2020 instead of Clayman 2020? Actually... Don't. It'd be awful too, wouldn't it? At least the remaster would've had the opportunity to be better. And yeah, I can kinda see that about Lunar Strain. I think for me, it most comes down to (Vocally speaking) Stanne's vocals being completely unlike anything on the vast majority of DT's material. Then again, I haven't actually listened to The Mind's I yet, so I don't know how the transition from The Gallery to Projector went. I'm not saying that either period is negative, mind you, simply different.

Hey, man, Clayman 2020 was such a failure for them in terms of fan opinion that for CC's 15th anniversary, they just released two shirts and a hoodie, then called it a day. It's probably better that way, I'd probably be so fucked from CC re-recordings that I'd end up in a goddamn coma.

 

[DE4life]

For a while I've thought Reroute was an evolution of sorts from Clayman, which a lot of people do say, but listening through it again last night it's actually very different in terms of how the songs are written and structured. You can maybe parellel a few songs (Trigger/Cloud Connected & OFTW, for example) but what on Clayman sounds anything like System, Transparent, Dawn of a New Day, Egonomic, Free Fall, Black & White or Metaphor? For better or worse the guitars on Reroute are stripped down and pushed into the background, with vocals carrying significant amounts of the melody, especially in the chorus sectons. I like Reroute but it is 100% the point where the band completely changed how they wrote their songs. It makes sense too when you think about it, as Nordstrom admitted he basically forced the band to keep doing the dual-guitar melodies on Colony and Clayman. As soon as he was out of the picture they drastically cut back on that side of things, as they had seemingly wanted to do for some time. As far as the cutoff for new and old In Flames goes it is absolutely LS/TJR/Colony/Clayman and then everything else for me. I'd also personally have a second cut off point at ASOP, as I think Jesper leaving also hugely changed how the band sounded afterwards. Regardless, Reroute is not a sellout album, it's just what IF wanted to do at that point in their history, and the album they'd wanted to produce since 1999.

I've always felt that the hugely negative reaction to Siren Charms damaged Anders and Bjorn's confidence. They thought they'd created something really cool, but it got shit on from almost every angle. Going to Benson and allowing his cronies to get involved in writing songs for them seemed to be an admission that they were stuck and needed help. The fact they went to Benson rather than a decent metal producer is sad, but in my opinion an ego thing. He's a big name and they like being associated with that - continuing to work with him despite even the band themselves admitting that Battles didn't work out as they'd hoped. Even though SoSD sounds like a step in the right diection on the surface, so did 'The End' and 'I Am Above', which were then followed by 'The Truth' and 'House' respectively as singles. The band has a tendency in recent years to go from one extreme to the other as far as their singles are concerned. Even on Siren Charms they went from 'Rusted Nail' to 'Through Oblivion' as the first and second singles. Basically, I don't trust them. If you'd pre-ordered ITM based on IAA you'd be pretty perplexed with the album being full of tracks like Call My Name, Follow Me, House, We Will Remember, In This Life, All the Pain and Stay With Me.

Honestly I just want In Flames to leave their old stuff alone. They've proven they can't be trusted with it and they don't really understand how fans feel about their legacy (which imo has been the case for a number of years, but no band with any sense of respect for their back catalogue would release rerecordings sounding that terrible). There are definitely albums that would benefit from a remaster in their back catalogue, but at this point I'd want Anders and Bjorn totally left out of the process. It'd have to be given to a real metal producer who understands the music and the fans from that time period. Anders and Bjorn do not, as much as they claim to.

 

[Xpyro125]

Gotta completely agree with everything you said there. Reroute To Remain feels very much like they took step back from melodeath and towards melodeath-tinged metalcore/groove metal (Particularly on something like "Transparent"), but it still has some hints of their old melodies. I think the shifting of lead guitars down some strings (On most songs) is just as integral to the change of sound as the complete removal of harmonized guitars. I remember that they wanted to stop harmonizing the leads for live performances, which is fair enough, but I think that even if they had harmonized leads on Reroute, it'd still be a completely different album than anything before it compositionally. Not saying all of this to disagree, mind you, I just think that a ton of people gloss over that part just because the harmonized leads are the most obvious change. Didn't know that Nordstrom forced the band to keep the harmonized leads though, I can't imagine hearing Colony or Clayman without them. I know it may be weird to say, but I actually have my first cutoff between Subterranean and TJR, and my reasoning for that is because the overall sound is rather different. The compositions were different, with the band going from D Standard to C Standard, the production was quieter, the guitar tones scratchier and not quite as full, and obviously, different singers. While I think Clayman's moreso a transition from Colony to Reroute (Especially since it's completely separate from the TJR-Colony trilogy), I'd still group it with those three, since it's sonically rather similar to them. I would also have a third cutoff point between ASoP and SoaPF as well, for obvious reasons.

Oh, 100%. I mean, Siren Charms getting shit on is pretty warranted, but yeah, I can absolutely feel how that'd break one's confidence completely. And while I don't necessarily disagree with changing the band's sound because of it... I don't exactly like where they ended up actually going. Sure, I, the Mask is pretty good, and "State of Slow Decay" is rather promising, but the band does feel less Swedish/Gothenburg than ever, and the constant high-pitched vibrato wah bullshit that Bjorn does really doesn't help whatsoever. That point about the singles is pretty worrying, I will admit, though fuck "The End", horrible fucking song. Thinking about it, yeah, for the past two albums plus "Slow Decay", all of the lead singles tend to get old fans at least a tiny bit excited (Not sure why "The End" did, but whatever).

I'm grateful for only two things with Clayman 2020. 1. The orchestral medley was fucking godly, and the fact that they haven't collaborated more with Johannes Bergion aside from that and "A New Dawn" is a goddamn travesty. 2. People will finally shut the fuck up about wanting the band to make TJR 2... Though I guess that's because Clayman 2020 made us all, old and new fans, collectively lose hope in the band ever doing the slightest bit of justice to their older material. Oops. I do feel like Anders and Bjorn sort of know what fans love about the classic albums, but... Not all of it, and what they do know, they don't particularly want to do. Can't blame them too much for not wanting to, at least when they don't shit on their legacy with horrible re-recordings.

Also, I found Jesper doing some acoustic stuff from 2016 when I was looking for his usual tunings, and I was pretty surprised to see that parts of it are for "Closure" by Cyhra. I dunno, I just found it to be neat. Really hope I don't fuck up the formatting here.
https://www.facebook.com/CBOHDZNP/v...suck-cort-guitars-and-basses/776886222446862/
https://www.facebook.com/CBOHDZNP/videos/acoustic-today-nice-blsw/755145421287609/

 

[DE4life]

I'd agree with you on a cutoff between Sub/TJR, however, I should note that I wasn't really factoring in Lunar/Sub. I consider them more like demos. In a lot of ways it's more like a Jesper side-project than In Flames, which I'd classify as really starting with TJR as you had Anders. Jesper and Bjorn, the three main influences for the next 12 years or so, all in the band for the first time.

As far as 'The End' is concerned, I like it, but only in the sense of it being one of the more tolerable tracks on Battles. The beginning reminds me of something that could have come off SOAPF. Verses ae nothing special but Anders is screaming properly, at least. Pre-chorus builds up nicely to the chorus, which has a somewhat epic feel about it. Children's choir is lame. Solo is typical Bjorn solo #178 abusing the wah pedal as he loves to do. It's far from perfect, but compared to SC it actually sounded somewhat like In Flames again. Lyrics are also OK compared to what we'd had to endure on SC. It's not a song I ever listen to nowadays, but at the time it was a welcome relief from SC. As tends to be the case with IF though it wasn't representative of the album at all. It's like a SOAPF b-side that was given the Benson treatment and shoved onto Battles.

I think Anders and Bjorn understand what the old fans like about the classic albums, but I don't think they understand why they like those albums. They come out with stupid shit like "we don't want to make TJR 2" and "the songs don't work well live" - the first of which nobody ever asked for, and the second of which is simply a lie based on various widely available bootlegs of live shows pre-2002. We know from Nordstrom that they didn't want to do the dual-guitar thing anymore, and that's clearly the reason they chose not to make another album in that vein and why they took a lot of the classic songs out of the setlist, but they were never honest about it. They don't get that fans weren't asking for TJR 2 or Clayman 2 - just albums that were more than rush-to-the-chorus 3-4 minute radio hits and a bit of consistency from album-to-album. It's fine that they create music based on what they like, but how do they expect to retain a fanbase when their output changes so drastically between albums, especially from 2002 onwards? Simply asking fans to blindly go by the IFWT mantra and learn to love whatever they put out is nonsense. There's a reason the IF fanbase is one of the most fractured across the metal sphere, but Anders and Bjorn never really seem to have understood why that is, instead talking about 'haters' and saying that's just how things are for bands. They've never (publicly at least) come out and admitted that they themselves are partially to blame for the way things are.

 

[Xpyro125]

Fair enough, he was the only one in that era to last past Whoracle.

I guess the opening is pretty SoaPF if you shifted it a semitone or so down. I dunno, I'm not about to go into Guitar Pro to check. I think I'll disagree on the lyrics though- Siren Charms may be a bit emo, but it still doesn't feel as toddler edgy as Battles pound for pound, and saying "The End" is better than most of the other songs on Battles is a pretty low bar. I mean, I guess I agree on the account that aside from the stupid fucking choir, I don't hate it as much as the other tracks. I guess Siren Charms just hurt people that much. I dunno, I wasn't an In Flames fan quite that early on.

Aside from two or so tracks on each album that span five minutes and the handful of instrumentals, I don't the structure of the songs actually changed all too much on a macro scale. If anything, the most different album from the rush-to-the-chorus structure that people hate is Sounds of a Playground Fading, and that album is maligned by old and new fans alike. I don't think it's particularly invalid, mind you, there are other reasons for people to dislike or even hate the newer albums, but even with something like "Only For the Weak", the structure is pretty much the same. I can absolutely see your point about the inconsistency issue though. It may be something that I and modern fans love, but for long time fans, that's a serious issue. One of my favorite bands, Hundredth, used to be hardcore for quite a few albums and EPs, went to shoegaze for an album (Which is my favorite release from them), went nu wave for an album, and now they're synth pop. Deafheaven similarly went full shoegaze on their most recent album. When you have a firmly established sound, it's easy for old fans to feel put off when you leave them behind. I think that's why a band like Spiritbox can keep so many fans hooked with their discography- Until Eternal Mid, they never really ran any specific sound into the ground, and they recently changed sound to something more industrial on their new EP while also keeping a song that sounds like one of their old singles. So I guess when put into that sort of perspective, I can understand why the older fans are as bitter as they are. In Flames' classic sound and composition is pretty much gone, and even though it was still around in some capacity in the middle era, every work was still incredibly far removed from that classic sound. Anders and Bjorn will never give fans anything like the old albums again, and that's because they don't want to. If they own that and just make what they want, then I can accept that. Point is: Fuck Clayman 2020.

 

[eochaid]

Anders and Bjorn will never give fans anything like the old albums again, and that's because they don't want to.

More like they can't.

Till Whoracle, Jesper is the main songwriter along with Glenn, and those two stablish the sound from that era.

Once that Glenn leaves, Bjorn has more weight but that also changes how they approach music.

That is still balanced thanks to Jesper presence until he leaves the band.

Since then, Bjorn was never able to put something similar to the previous albums unless he copies some riffs here and there. But he doesn't even seem to be able to understand how they were achieving all of those melodic parts.

As for Anders, I don't think that he really cared. He was probably ok being in a band but he doesn't seem to be the melodeath guy. Just a pretentious wannabe.

 

[Xpyro125]

I wish I could figure out Bjorn's compositional style/melody style aside from his agonizing wah pedal solos. I'm not really sure which melodies or riffs he contributed to Colony and Clayman, so I can't really say anything there. "Pinball Map" sounds like his style, but maybe that's just because it's surprisingly comparable to the modern stuff riff-wise. They could always try to emulate the sound of the classic albums (Which would likely be a disaster), and "State of Slow Decay" shows that if nothing else, they still can still try to approximate the style- It's not too far removed from "Pinball Map". Or "Blinded By Fear", they could always rip that off too.

I do think Anders had some passion for the band- He came up with the lyrics and the story concepts (As far as credits go, anyways) for the classic albums in particular, and the lyrics on those albums are fantastic, and he decided to, along with Bjorn, become rather hands-on with the band's music, production, etc. Perhaps a bit too hands-on, sure, but the passion seems to be there. The melodeath point does make sense though. I'm not sure it's where his heart was, and although he definitely had to practice in order to do harsh vocals, it could very well just be that he didn't have the confidence to do clean vocals before. It could be a stretch, but eh. Point is that I can see the point. That sound was very much Jesper's vision, and aside from the band's overall legacy, he doesn't seem to pay the melodeath side of things much mind.

 

[DE4life]

I guess Siren Charms just hurt people that much. I dunno, I wasn't an In Flames fan quite that early on.

It really did. Siren Charms drove off a lot of IF fans. You even see it on this forum. Compare the amount of people posting before and after Siren Charms and there is a noticeable difference. The SC thread on here goes from optimism, to concern, to outright anger by the end. It's just not the album In Flames fans wanted, irrespective of its potential merits. It was so far removed from what people associated In Flames with that I think a lot of people straight up just gave up on the band after that point, and Battles certainly wasn't going to pull them back in. I've said all along SC should have been released as a side-project, similar to Passenger. It damaged IF's reputation to the point where I still don't think they've fully recovered.

If anything, the most different album from the rush-to-the-chorus structure that people hate is Sounds of a Playground Fading, and that album is maligned by old and new fans alike. I don't think it's particularly invalid, mind you, there are other reasons for people to dislike or even hate the newer albums, but even with something like "Only For the Weak", the structure is pretty much the same. I can absolutely see your point about the inconsistency issue though. It may be something that I and modern fans love, but for long time fans, that's a serious issue. One of my favorite bands, Hundredth, used to be hardcore for quite a few albums and EPs, went to shoegaze for an album (Which is my favorite release from them), went nu wave for an album, and now they're synth pop. Deafheaven similarly went full shoegaze on their most recent album. When you have a firmly established sound, it's easy for old fans to feel put off when you leave them behind. I think that's why a band like Spiritbox can keep so many fans hooked with their discography- Until Eternal Mid, they never really ran any specific sound into the ground, and they recently changed sound to something more industrial on their new EP while also keeping a song that sounds like one of their old singles. So I guess when put into that sort of perspective, I can understand why the older fans are as bitter as they are. In Flames' classic sound and composition is pretty much gone, and even though it was still around in some capacity in the middle era, every work was still incredibly far removed from that classic sound. Anders and Bjorn will never give fans anything like the old albums again, and that's because they don't want to. If they own that and just make what they want, then I can accept that. Point is: Fuck Clayman 2020.

The thing about metal is that generally the most popular bands have an identity of sorts. Fans tend to latch onto that. There's a level of comfort in knowing what to expect from a band you really like. With In Flames post-2002 there really wasn't any way to know what was coming next. In some ways the unpredictability is interesting, but in other ways it's just annoying. The other problem is that, for older fans especially, In Flames were devolving rather than evolving. If they'd moved onto something artistically challenging then I think that would have been one thing, but they just kept simplifying their music to the point where Anders past jokes about "playing the hits" became a reality. They were just a band who created catchy, somewhat hollow 'hits' that were initially pleasing to the ear but got old a lot faster than their earlier work, because there simply wasn't the same amount of effort being put in.

There's an oft-repeated theory that Anders was behind the shift in musical tone post-Clayman, but based on interviews I've read about the post-Clayman albums I don't think there's much merit to those suggestions.

We already know from Nordstrom that Bjorn and Jesper were done with the dual-guitar stuff by the time they recorded Clayman. They didn't want to put that kind of effort into the guitars anymore. So, Reroute makes total sense in that context. The melodies are still there but toned down a lot. Anders worked with a producer on his vocals for that album but I don't think he was controlling what was being output in any way. I believe he was just trying to step up to contribute more so that Bjorn and Jesper didn't have to create every melody. He wanted his vocals to help out with that. There are some instances where Anders had some influence (Metaphor for example was originally supposed to be an instrumental before Anders asked to add vocals) but I don't think he had any say in the actual music produced.

For STYE there's an interview out there where Anders states he heard the instrumentation of the album before recording vocals and was surprised and disappointed with how Bjorn and Jesper hadn't written many melodies. He felt there should have been more. So unless he's lying I don't think you can pin the STYE sound on Anders. That's what Bjorn and Jesper wanted to write.

For Come Clarity it's well known the band were not on the best of terms by this point. The guitars, bass and drums were written in total isolation from the vocals and sent to Anders, who then added the vocals and sent them back hoping the rest of the band would be OK with them. It's clear that on these recordings Anders had zero say in the musical direction, as by all accounts he didn't even speak to Bjorn or Jesper about it.

ASOP was a more collaborative effort, well documented with the studio diaries they did around this time. Jesper has always defended ASOP and thinks it's underrated, so I find it very unlikely Anders was pushing for a certain sound on this album either. Jesper definitely would have said something about it by now if that was the case.

It's been stated by both Anders and Bjorn that the latter wrote the entirety of SOAPF, and indeed specifically asked to do so, even though Niclas was willing to help. There's nothing to suggest Anders had any major input in the instrumental side of SOAPF.

Siren Charms is where Anders' influence became more prominent, and has continued since then. It also coincides with the worst section of In Flames career, so... yeah... but nobody should be under any illusions that Jesper and Bjorn were sidelined by dictator Anders during the 2002-2011 period. They were writing what they wanted to write, and you could argue Anders had no choice but to attempt new things with his vocals, as the guitar melodies simply weren't there like they had been in the past.

 

[eochaid]

About SC, there's a point where I stopped following the band social medias, and that's when they retweeted an guy saying that anyone not liking EG was a fake follower.

That was quite disrespectful.

 

[DE4life]

I remember that. Probably just their social media manager, but yeah, it was total bullshit.

 

[eochaid]

Even a SMM must have its limits. That's an attitude that I cannot forgive.

 

[DE4life]

I think IF got their feelings hurt really early on with the criticism of Reroute. They released that butthurt statement raging at the fans who were unhappy with them touring with Slipknot but this forum was also once the official IF forum. They closed it because of all the negative comments, and also apparently people were pretending to be band members, creating rumours about Jesper doing acid on stage, and other such things... typical early internet stuff, but I don't think the band ever really forgot that and it might be part of the reason they act so adversarial towards older fans ever since.

 

[ThePhobiac]

I've said all along SC should have been released as a side-project, similar to Passenger. It damaged IF's reputation to the point where I still don't think they've fully recovered.

To this day I still believe that if they had released a strong and straightforward In Flames album after Siren Charms, the band would've been fine. To me Siren Charms was the second overtly experimental album they did (the first was STYE), and they needed to release -- and I expected at the time that they would -- another Come Clarity to establish that it was a one-off. Following it up with Battles was absolutely the wrong move.

I cringe when I see people lumping SC in with Battles and ITM. Completely different beasts.

If it had been sandwiched between SOAPF and a traditional IF album similar to SOAPF, it's possible SC would have garnered more fans over time due to it being a strange black sheep in the discography that didn't interfere with the band's overall trajectory. But now it's just seen as part of their sharp decline in the '10s. One of the many reasons I can't stand Battles, lmao

 

[Xpyro125]

That's really interesting to hear, actually, thanks for all the insight, everyone. I started listening to the band back in 2016 or 2017 (It was in the summer, but I think Battles was already out by that point, so 2017 is far more likely), so I don't really have any sort of feeling of betrayal by or disappointment in the band (Well, at least not as a long-time fan), but I can certainly understand it a lot more now that it's been put into perspective. I also didn't realize just how detached from the writing process Anders was until Siren Charms, though I never quite saw him as a dictatorial figure either. It kind of reminds me of how I was a massive Shinedown fan many years ago, and absolutely hated Threat To Survival when it released. I still do, and I genuinely feel like it's that band's Siren Charms. Any post-grunge influences or truly profound lyrics went right out the door, save for a couple songs here and there. Their music never really recovered for me since, even if their last album was a big step up. Same sort of thing with Hundredth. I wasn't around for their hardcore era, but they completely wiped that period from their history- You can only see that material on other channels' video or other websites. But they moved on to RARE, and to be fair, it was fucking phenomenal, it's one of my favorite shoegaze albums ever. It ended up being loved by so many people ala Sunbather, but the band just moved on after an EP of synth-driven remixes of some of its songs that, honestly, were on par with the originals. I really don't like Something Nothing, and a lot of people don't, but they could not give a fuck. Granted, I respect that, I respect the honesty, and I'm glad they're doing what they want, but I wish they'd just tell people "Yeah, we just don't want to write that kind of music anymore" instead of "lol, lmao". I dunno, that's just long stories to say that in a way, I get it. I don't particularly want to imagine what it'd be like to be a fan of a band for 6-8 years and to have that radical shift, then to have something like Siren Charms 20 years after Lunar Strain, but I suppose I can take a guess now. I warms my heart a bit to see that it wasn't SoaPF that really pushed people away, since that's been my perception of things for some time.

 

[A88]

The basic problem with IF is they're always trying to write what is popular at that particular moment, and that is a trend that started some 20 years ago.

Sometimes it works, and they get an album that is in line with the mainstream taste of US metal fans (Come Clarity for example). But as they are getting older and as they're running out of ideas and energy, things are getting pretty sad and cringy (SC, Battles, maybe a half of ITM).

Also, for all the talk about change and reinventing and various influences, they seem to excel only in a certain type of music. I wouldn't mind Anders pushing his Depeche Mode influences if he could write a decent synth-driven song and maybe, I don't know, sing... But he can't.

 

[DE4life]

To this day I still believe that if they had released a strong and straightforward In Flames album after Siren Charms, the band would've been fine. To me Siren Charms was the second overtly experimental album they did (the first was STYE), and they needed to release -- and I expected at the time that they would -- another Come Clarity to establish that it was a one-off. Following it up with Battles was absolutely the wrong move.

I cringe when I see people lumping SC in with Battles and ITM. Completely different beasts.

If it had been sandwiched between SOAPF and a traditional IF album similar to SOAPF, it's possible SC would have garnered more fans over time due to it being a strange black sheep in the discography that didn't interfere with the band's overall trajectory. But now it's just seen as part of their sharp decline in the '10s. One of the many reasons I can't stand Battles, lmao

Pretty much agree with everything you say here, which is unusual 2014 was definitely the wrong time to bring out something like Siren Charms under the In Flames banner. Arguably it would never have been the right time, but certainly not then. Maybe they felt they had already proven their point with SOAPF and could go a different route without any major problems, idk. To be fair it also baffles me when people call SC an evolution of SOAPF. I don't see that at all. The only song on SC that would in any way fit into SOAPF, from my perspective, is Rusted Fail - but only with some serious adjustments first. I suppose you could also make a case for WEWO / Liberation, but that's as far as I can go. I'd say it's fair to lump Battles / ITM together due to the Benson influence, but SC? No. As you say, a different beast, albeit still a grotesque one in my humble opinion

 

[The Grayfox]

That's really interesting to hear, actually, thanks for all the insight, everyone. I started listening to the band back in 2016 or 2017 (It was in the summer, but I think Battles was already out by that point, so 2017 is far more likely), so I don't really have any sort of feeling of betrayal by or disappointment in the band (Well, at least not as a long-time fan), but I can certainly understand it a lot more now that it's been put into perspective. I also didn't realize just how detached from the writing process Anders was until Siren Charms, though I never quite saw him as a dictatorial figure either. It kind of reminds me of how I was a massive Shinedown fan many years ago, and absolutely hated Threat To Survival when it released. I still do, and I genuinely feel like it's that band's Siren Charms. Any post-grunge influences or truly profound lyrics went right out the door, save for a couple songs here and there. Their music never really recovered for me since, even if their last album was a big step up. Same sort of thing with Hundredth. I wasn't around for their hardcore era, but they completely wiped that period from their history- You can only see that material on other channels' video or other websites. But they moved on to RARE, and to be fair, it was fucking phenomenal, it's one of my favorite shoegaze albums ever. It ended up being loved by so many people ala Sunbather, but the band just moved on after an EP of synth-driven remixes of some of its songs that, honestly, were on par with the originals. I really don't like Something Nothing, and a lot of people don't, but they could not give a fuck. Granted, I respect that, I respect the honesty, and I'm glad they're doing what they want, but I wish they'd just tell people "Yeah, we just don't want to write that kind of music anymore" instead of "lol, lmao". I dunno, that's just long stories to say that in a way, I get it. I don't particularly want to imagine what it'd be like to be a fan of a band for 6-8 years and to have that radical shift, then to have something like Siren Charms 20 years after Lunar Strain, but I suppose I can take a guess now. I warms my heart a bit to see that it wasn't SoaPF that really pushed people away, since that's been my perception of things for some time.

I think age also comes into play with these types of things. When you mentioned betrayal, it really made me think back to those times. When you're young and stupid (at least some of us), you have this feeling of entitlement -- 'this band is mine, it's for me and me only! -- and then you get older and you realize that it's the music BUSINESS. When I was 13, 14 years old listening to In Flames, I didn't really think about the fact that people were making this music and wanted to make a living from it. They didn't want to spend time in the studio and tour and also work a day job so they could pay their rent, eat, provide for their families. That just never registered to me as a kid. Obviously I understood the idea of having a job and paying your bills, but it seemed way more important that these bands maintained a specific style to suit my tastes. It's a truly selfish, stupid way of looking at things. But alas, that could be part of growing up and being naive.

But in maintaining that mindset, you do feel a sense of betrayal when these bands you love who create music you love no longer tailor their sound to a style you enjoy. At this point in my life, I understand it. I just don't listen to music that I don't enjoy. It's pretty simple. Would I have loved if In Flames continued their progression differently? Sure. But it isn't some devastating blow like it was to me as a teenager. And it did feel devastating and disappointing then. I still hold their early work in high regard, I just don't really look forward to new material, especially because when I look at In Flames, I don't see/hear In Flames anymore. Although I love The Jester Race/Whoracle days, I will always think of the Colony-ASOP era as In Flames (even if I didn't particularly enjoy some of that work). In Flames will always be Jesper, Anders, Bjorn, Peter and Daniel to me. Right now, as talented as they may be, I think of the current line up as Anders & Bjorn & Company. They just feel like stand-ins. I truly hope that when the day comes that In Flames calls it quits, that we get to see those five guys together at least one more time.

 

[DE4life]

That's really interesting to hear, actually, thanks for all the insight, everyone. I started listening to the band back in 2016 or 2017 (It was in the summer, but I think Battles was already out by that point, so 2017 is far more likely), so I don't really have any sort of feeling of betrayal by or disappointment in the band (Well, at least not as a long-time fan), but I can certainly understand it a lot more now that it's been put into perspective. I also didn't realize just how detached from the writing process Anders was until Siren Charms, though I never quite saw him as a dictatorial figure either. It kind of reminds me of how I was a massive Shinedown fan many years ago, and absolutely hated Threat To Survival when it released. I still do, and I genuinely feel like it's that band's Siren Charms. Any post-grunge influences or truly profound lyrics went right out the door, save for a couple songs here and there. Their music never really recovered for me since, even if their last album was a big step up. Same sort of thing with Hundredth. I wasn't around for their hardcore era, but they completely wiped that period from their history- You can only see that material on other channels' video or other websites. But they moved on to RARE, and to be fair, it was fucking phenomenal, it's one of my favorite shoegaze albums ever. It ended up being loved by so many people ala Sunbather, but the band just moved on after an EP of synth-driven remixes of some of its songs that, honestly, were on par with the originals. I really don't like Something Nothing, and a lot of people don't, but they could not give a fuck. Granted, I respect that, I respect the honesty, and I'm glad they're doing what they want, but I wish they'd just tell people "Yeah, we just don't want to write that kind of music anymore" instead of "lol, lmao". I dunno, that's just long stories to say that in a way, I get it. I don't particularly want to imagine what it'd be like to be a fan of a band for 6-8 years and to have that radical shift, then to have something like Siren Charms 20 years after Lunar Strain, but I suppose I can take a guess now. I warms my heart a bit to see that it wasn't SoaPF that really pushed people away, since that's been my perception of things for some time.

It's difficult for me to comprehend getting into IF so late, having been listening to them for so long, which is why I try to look at it from other perspectives when debating IF with newer fans. Our perceptions are going to be very different, so I can't expect someone who didn't grow up with the classics to feel the same way about them I do. They were a part of my formative musical years, but for many IF fans nowadays they are more like ancient artifacts where the band sounds totally different to present day. Many of these people won't even be fans of 90s MDM/DM music, so I can't expect that same level of interest or reverence.

 

[DE4life]

The basic problem with IF is they're always trying to write what is popular at that particular moment, and that is a trend that started some 20 years ago.

Sometimes it works, and they get an album that is in line with the mainstream taste of US metal fans (Come Clarity for example). But as they are getting older and as they're running out of ideas and energy, things are getting pretty sad and cringy (SC, Battles, maybe a half of ITM).

Also, for all the talk about change and reinventing and various influences, they seem to excel only in a certain type of music. I wouldn't mind Anders pushing his Depeche Mode influences if he could write a decent synth-driven song and maybe, I don't know, sing... But he can't.

Yep, nail on head there as usual my friend. The only albums where I think they weren't chasing trends were SOAPF (Bjorn just writing the album he'd like to write, without any other influences) and Siren Charms (Anders producing the album he wants). Everything else post-Clayman has been chasing trends for sure. As you say, sometimes they did a good or even great job with that, but that uniqueness had disappeared. As Nordstrom said, they became followers rather than leaders, which was a shame.