wtf...Extol is christian death metal?!

[Black Session]

one final question, I simply have to ask (but this discussion has to come to an end soon, because it is turning more and more into a debate about christianity itself, and this is not the place for that).
Do any of you christians attend black metal gigs? And if you like those bands like Emperor and stuff, how do you feel that bandmembers of those bands actually burned churches in the early 90's ... and murdered people? ...
these are the things why I can't understand why anyone can see black metal as not per definition as satanic. so please, enlighten me, and explain ...
personally if opeth would express strong messages with wich i wouldn't agree at all and would be an attack against my own believes, than i wouldn't be able to listen it the same way ...

 

[vampyrouss]

Thats a good point that those bands have spoken out against Christianity in a big way. But the Christian people I know were ok with me wearing CoF shirts and didn't seem offended or something. They liked Radiohead and stuff, and didn't seem to care that I listened to bands that are against Christianity. Because obviously even those people who ARE against it only hate the religion, and not individual people. If a member of Mayhem met a Christian and didn't know they were they would probably get along anyway. So I don't see why they shouldn't like the music, but yeah, some of the church burnings and stuff may freak them out. But to be honest if I met Varg back in the day I'd be a little worried and I'm not even a Christian!!

 

[CAIRATH]

But the Christian people I know were ok with me wearing CoF shirts and didn't seem offended or something.

I take it you weren't wearing this one then:

 

[soundave]

I'm new here and joining this discussion way late, so I apologize ahead of time. I've tried to read all the posts before posting.

My feeling is that people often will take an art form belonging to someone else or some other group (or even religious practice...I'll elaborate in a second) and make it their own. Sometimes it's calculated to destroy that other group by using their art against them to weaken the cause. How do you prove that modern art is crap? Become a dadaist and hang urinals on the wall and call it art. I'm not saying that Christian Death metal or BM is trying to destroy the art form, but perhaps the "satanic" component of it?

Another example: Christmas. As I'm sure you know, Christ was born in the Spring, not in December (it was lambing season). The real reason that Xmas is celebrated when it is now was to combat the last vestiges of paganism. The pagans had this really cool winter festival with food and such...

In anthropology it's called syncretism (hey, cool band name!), where you take a belief or practice from one religion and combine it with your own (vodoun, santeria, etc.). Perhaps Christian Death Metal is musical syncretism?

Besides, I've always felt the satanic thing is way played out and quite boring. Get a new topic. That's why I've really like Opeth. It's not all satanic. Anything that preaches all the time gets very boring quickly, whether it's satanic or christian. Besides, if a band just uses christian imagery and stories from the Bible, it could actually translate really well to metal. I mean the idea of the Hebrews carrying around their God-In-A-Box who tells them to kill every man, woman, child, and animal just because? Sick. The crucifixion was brutal. Revelations is way trippy and scary.

Someone gave me a great CD by Believer, who are like Christian Thrash. Good shit. They take a sort of philosophical approach. Also, they do this crazy thing with an "orchestra" as the last few tracks that precedes a lot of the metal/orchestra combos that have sprung up in recent years. Hard to find, but worth checking out.

That's my 2 cents. Great discussion, folks. I'm really enjoying it!

 

[EveOfDarkness]

I'll admit, the whole thing about church burnings and stuff is kind of disturbing especially being a christian myself, but I usually don't listen to those specific bands that much any ways. If I did, personally, it would purely be for the music. For me, thats more important than their message. But admittingly, the fact that these guys burned churches makes it kind of hard to listen toflame: ). Oh well, good MUSIC is good MUSIC. (Emperor i dont believe burned churches, they are the only real black metal band I listen to, don't care much for the other ones, musically speaking).

 

[soundave]

The church burning and murders have always troubled me. It's a little gangster rap, you know? I mean, it's music, folks. Must we ACTUALLY kill one another? Can't we leave that to politicians?

However, my understanding about the church burnings (feel free to jump down my throat in response to this if I'm wrong) is that they were a reaction to the Church's destructive missionary work in a largely pagan area. Less satanic than anti-christian, if you know what I mean. Was anyone killed in the church burnings? My recollection seems to be that they weren't. But I don't remember.

As far as the murders? Well, there's no excuse for fucked up people...

 

[Autumnal]

@BlackSession

Hey man, wasn't trying to offend you, nor do I see you as a representative of satanism. You clearly stated you were an atheist. Anyway, I wasn't trying to attack.

Oh, also, to answer your other question, I'm not Christian, but anyone who burns buildings of any sort is a fuckhead.

 

[Kenneth R.]

@BlackSession


Oh, also, to answer your other question, I'm not Christian, but anyone who burns buildings of any sort is a fuckhead.

i agree. As a Christian myself, I find it deplorable that people burn any house of worship, or anyone's home. While I don't agree with pagans or atheists, I still respect them and their views, and especially their music!

PS: anyone interested in checking out bands that are simultaneously Christian and heavy as lead, there are links on the first page of this thread, and I'm sure one member of UM has many more than I could provide, as he is sort of a Christian- BM expert.

 

[Alex78]

Tourniquet is another really good progressive(!) thrash band...if you can get over the lyrics

 

[vampyrouss]

I guess I was in a semi Christian band for a time. My bandmate became a Christian for a while whilst we were playing, so did that make us a Half Christian band? Or does it only count if you sing about Christianity? We don't call athiest bands Athiest-Death Metal or whatever right? Its interesting to ponder what gives you the right to that extra word. Which is why I still feel there is no need to put the Christian bit in front. It just seems like a marketing gimmick to me. What would that make Burzum for instance? Varg has changed his beliefs so much, what would the genre be?! It should be based on the music, if you really have to put things in genres, not on the band members beliefs.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Tourniquet is another really good progressive(!) thrash band...if you can get over the lyrics

Yes they are!

also:
Symapthy
Sirenia
Soul Embraced
Fasedown
...

 

[soundave]

I guess I was in a semi Christian band for a time. My bandmate became a Christian for a while whilst we were playing, so did that make us a Half Christian band? Or does it only count if you sing about Christianity? We don't call athiest bands Athiest-Death Metal or whatever right? Its interesting to ponder what gives you the right to that extra word. Which is why I still feel there is no need to put the Christian bit in front. It just seems like a marketing gimmick to me. What would that make Burzum for instance? Varg has changed his beliefs so much, what would the genre be?! It should be based on the music, if you really have to put things in genres, not on the band members beliefs.

I agree, vampyrouss. I mean, there are a million metal genres now. Remember when there was only heavy metal?

A genre is a warning label. Black metal=Warning: contents include minimalist production quality, screeching vocals, anti-christian ranting. Prog Metal=Warning: contents include overlong songs and musical masturbation. And so on.

Therefore, when a band tries to fit into a genre but has an element that is not part of the warning label, people feel compelled to warn you about that alien ingredient. "Look out! There are CLEAN VOCALS!" Some people, unlike myself, want to know EXACTLY what they are getting, musically. They don't want to have a nasty surprise pop up in their musical experience. It's about setting expectations.

Frankly, I don't care about such things. I like metal in all its forms, and I love bands that defy categorization, like Opeth. Death? Prog? Melo? Diehards of any one genre will either not like them for their "inconsistency", or ignore them and claim that Opeth belong to a single genre. How many times have I heard people complain on this board about GR because it isn't REALLY death metal? Genres suck.

IMO, a band is no more christian death metal because its members are christian than God Forbid is black metal because its members are black!

 

[Kenneth R.]

i was going to post something similar- adding 'Christian' to the front is hardly different than saying 'Melodic' Death... some people care if it is or not, and people like me just want to see the word 'metal' at the end.

 

[danmog]

@ black session

my response to your question is similar to others. i enjoy bands like emperor, satyricon... i think it's a shame that they have such strong feelings against christianity. in most cases, i think it's more of a disgust w/ organized religion. in many ways, i share the same disgust. i get along fine, in everyday life, with many people who don't share my beliefs. i'm perfectly comfortable with listening to an overtly satanic/anti-christian band, if i really like their music. i just listen, while recognizing the fact that i don't agree w/ what their saying.

i'm in a cover band, consisting of christian members. we play guns 'n' roses, black sabbath, metallica, judas priest... and we play at bars and clubs, and we don't make any intentional attempt to share our beliefs (although, in conversations w/ people there, it sometimes comes up).
...are we a 'christian rock' band? or just a rock band, made up of people who are christians? and if we occasionally play a song with christian lyrics, do we become a christian band, up until the moment that song ends, and we break into a danzig song?

 

[T-Rat]

well, as an orthodox christian and metal/prog/rock fan, i am all for real metal that's by other Christians, but I agree with others in that what I care most about is the quality of the music, vocals and lyrics.
However, there are bands that i will not listen to because of overtly satanic messages/imagery, but I am more bothered by any group that advocates hate or violence of any kind—that shit I really avoid.
but i am pretty tolerant of the satanism thing. usually, it's just silly anyway. the really "satanic" lyrics in metal are just as cliché, pointless and dumb as the "praise jesus" lyrics in some Christian music (i definately don't like bands that write songs like that!). i mean, such lyrics lack imagination just like the top 40 crap.
shit, i throw horns and wear devil horns at haloween, too. what would my priest think! (actually, he couldn’t care less…)
for the rest of the arguments here, christianity is actually about the dark side of things as much as the light.
please, don't let the fundaMENTAList, or just plain mental, bozos in the usa give christianity or christians a bad rap. some do want to shove their beliefs on you and pretend that the world is black and white. but most of us are interesting people with our own tastes, morals and ideas that are influenced by our religion, but not dictated by it.
Christianity, at it’s best, does not pretend that the world is without it’s problems or that people are capable of being good all the time. We can’t be—that’s why I like opeth lyrics—they deal with the reality of fallen creation, they deal with the pain, desperation and evil which all people confront. There’s no such thing as a sin-free person, and the Christians who pretend to be perfect are hypocritical, have bad theology, and are actually heretics in as much as only God is above sin.
Christianity is also about individuality and creativity. Jesus didn't get crucified for following the "party-line." he got crucified because he was a bad motherfucker! He went around bashing the people in charge, Jewish leaders, the Romans, etc. and he paid big time. He was not obedient. He chose what was right over what was acceptable many, many times.
Christianity is actually a bit like Satanism in this regard, despite what some dogmas seem to preach about free will or disobedience. it’s just that the individual is supposed to think beyond his or her own benefit in making decisions whereas the Satanist only needs to consider his own needs and desires.
moreover, if you do believe in a god, angels, etc, then you also must logically believe in a devil and demons. You can’t really be an atheist and a Satanist.
…
Music for thinking people is generally unconcerned with overt dogma or propaganda anyway.
But it is nice to have music that reflects one's own ideals and world view. we all look for that in one way or another, even if it means looking for a no-message band.

…would love some recommendations...
SS? Feel free to post some bands/songs we opethians (and fans of PT, etc.) might like...

 

[cyanopsis]

I feel I have to jump into the discussion, adding a few comments from what I've gathered through a couple of years in researching this subject. Christian metal with death vocals originates from the american group Mortification sometime around 1990 and the first christian black metal band is probably Horde, which supposedly has its' origins in Australia, although its' first and only (?) album, Hellig Usvart, has a norwegian title. It was Nuclear Blast that released the album, and according to some sources, the NB president was threatened to death for this release. To still be able to connect its' musical roots to black metal, but at the same time mark its' clear distinction from it, the genre has been named Unblack metal. This is what most christian black metal fans call it, anyway.

To sum up a hundred pages or so, the christian black metal groups are mostly made up of christian metal fans that are attracted to the musical dimensions of black and death metal, but because of well grounded and strong religious beliefs have a hard time listening to traditional black metal. Since satanism (and in the long run satanic black metal) should be considered a reaction to christianity (many symbols in common, altough altered in some way; upside down for instance), unblack metal could easily be explained as a reaction to the initial reaction. Unblack metal uses the same kind of imagery and often also the same gory lyrics as traditional black metal, but it has been altered in the same manner as the former (instead of a bloody chopped off Jesus head, satan has been crushed to a bloody death by strong christian beliefs).

Also, there are rarely any problems in explaining the use of, for example, growling vocals, since "the Bible tells us that God's voice is like the sound of rushing water. Have you ever heard a huge waterfall? Its' sound is exhilarating and over powering" (taken from an interview with the mexican band Lament).

I personally feel that the christian (un)black metallers are more true to their faith than the satanic dito. Probably more than 90% of band members in black metal groups use satanic symbols because of commercial reasons (satanic imagery is appealing to youngsters who are in the middle of liberating from their parents) but I don't see any christian metallers that use christianity as a form of image.

Unblack metal might be a contradiction, but that is what man is... contradictory. It is a sign of postmodernity.

I am sure some of you will find this to be complete bull shit.

 

[cyanopsis]

To comment on T-rat above... you speak of emotions which seem common among christian metalheads; living a life in this world is not a stroll in the park. It is a world full of darkness and deception and evil seem to lurk in every corner. As with other folk, this could result in a strong will to leave the earthly life sooner than later, to enjoy a more balanced existence in the afterlife.

So maybe we need to speak of a more world-rejecting form of christianity; a "black metal christianity" which takes its' dogmatic elements from traditional christianity, but that has developed its' own kind of world-view.

 

[EveOfDarkness]

Wow guys i am truly impressed by this board. The same topic has been debated in other forums, namely MX forums where I frequent, and I was so sad to see so many people bash the Christians for no good reason at all, very hate filled and thoughtless. At least here I see a lot of intelligent opinions. Not even necessarily defending Christianity at all, but defending people trying to do something they believe in. That totally made my day, to see there are still intelligent people in the world.

 

[vampyrouss]

Yeah, I'm impressed too. It shows that just because someone does or doesn't believe in something doesn't mean they cant enjoy good music and share a good discussion!

 

[Scourge of Malice]

i met a guy with an extol tatoo at the opeth show last night. dedicated