Controversial non-metal opinions

[panzerfaust666]

I have a hard time to appreciate Miles Davis "bitches brew", an album that is considered by many as one of the best ever. Not just in jazz but overall, every genre.

I like other jazz but Im not very knowledgable of the genre. Its not that the album is bad its just that there is nothing about it that I remember after hearing it. No melodies, no rythms and no specific feeling either. To me its just "there" when I listen to it and then goes away the moment the music stops.

Hmm thats odd....I think, or it seems to ME that, the album along with Mingus's Black Saint and the Sinner Lady are to be appreciated for the feeling they envoke. Like Bitches Brew is this fantastical Continous Climax of music. At somepoints it seems so INSANE, but through the dust comes this weird and incredibly wonderful unity in the instruments.

Fuck i dont know. listen to it again


Also OCI: Yeah TDSOTM really isnt there best. It is incredible, but there's so much more to floyds music.

 

[TheInsane]

Hmm thats odd....I think, or it seems to ME that, the album along with Mingus's Black Saint and the Sinner Lady are to be appreciated for the feeling they envoke. Like Bitches Brew is this fantastical Continous Climax of music. At somepoints it seems so INSANE, but through the dust comes this weird and incredibly wonderful unity in the instruments.

Fuck i dont know. listen to it again

Well sometimes I feel a weird connection with an album or an artist but when I listen to it I dont understand the brilliance. Then I can get this feeling (without hearing the music) that now Im ready for _album X_. And when I play it I suddenly understand it. Its like I let it rest to ripe.

I have gone back to "bitches brew" every once in a while since I bought it (a few months back) and it does invoke a feeling that I should like this. Maybe this is one of those albums that will click with me eventually when it has riped.

 

[challenge_everything]

I prefer Kind of Blue myself...

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

'Bitches Brew' will probably take a really long time tbh, especially if you haven't ventured much into early fusion and/or aren't a musician. The musician part is relevant because of how you can hear the creative synergy and flow of bizarre music the band creates, the chemistry in the jam sections, et al..being inspired by the huge 'brew' of it all and where it goes. But it's certainly pretty dissonant and I wouldn't feel too bad for still being kind of lost.

Also speaking of that album I hope to one day have a huge print of the art hanging on the wall (the full art).



When I read the Opeth post I died a little inside tbqh, but that always happens.

 

[razoredge]

errrrrrrrr yeah this is pretty much what I said. But being "in it" is still pretty limiting, and personally, while I do find some leads he has to be enthralling ('Humans Being' for example), I simply don't find that form of rock to often contain much depth or emotion so a lot of VH's music rings hollow for me. If I hadn't heard it, I can see myself taking something from his *technique* but not his *content* - which is ironic since that's now the legacy of your average shredder but I don't think of EVH as your average shredder. He just happens to play in one of my least favorite bands of all time, that's all.

I know in some areas we were saying the same thing, but I think you are wrong about his ability to impress with great riffage skill and creativity as well as some smokin solos. Some odd solos, and toward the later years his solo signature became more obvious. I think he used quite a few licks many times. So maybe here you feel other types of progressions would have fed him more ideas... that could be. I love the three Hagar era albums and love em. The Roth era was a bit too grade school lyrics and predictability of vocal antics for me. Eddie was still doing well developing his riff style though.

This is ONE guitar on stage and its a wall of sound and tone, guitar in yer face. He's pretty busy too, yep its a rocker, one that Chuck Berry and Elvis's guys could never had imagined RnR would gave become.

I have to pick and choose my 80's pop metal tunes but really never with VH, even their overplayed, frowned upon by hardcore metal "wanky" tunes I can still find merit them as songs. Hot Summers Night, amazing riff and guitar tone, mood setting, ect. ect.

Heres 5150 live with some guitar play, I mean how do you rate this ? How can you rate this ? Where is it supposed to be rated ? Some back seat ? Compare to the best of the best and say... eh ? I cant see it, hes one of the comparitively few that became the guitar, this is a gifted possession

 

[razoredge]

I tried a few Bitches brew songs on you tube and I guees I dont get it either. Too out there for me so I never persued it further, and know that I am a origional electric fusion fan... Mahavishnu, Spectrum, Return to Forever, Zappa, Ponty, Beck but that out there trumpet stuff just didnt jive for me. Might be some songs on there that would but I couldnt see myself running out and buying it. Any links or names of must hear songs from it? I'll always try again.

 

[panzerfaust666]

@ razor:

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

I could listen to Mahavishnu every day for the rest of my life tbqh. Up to 'Visions of the Emerald Beyond' that is.

And that title track is my favorite off 'Bitches Brew'. But originally it's 26 minutes long, not 7.

 

[razoredge]

I can see the merit in that. A bit abstract for me to run too but does paint a picture. Sounds like city madness, Im glad they drew point to that in the vid. This features Cobham and McLaughlin right ? Sounds like the 60's... a piece of the 60's that is. Must have been stuff like this in some movie soundtracks because it has a fimiliarity.

Coltrain might be another I dont really get.

 

[razoredge]

I like some of Visions but yeah.

I cant listen to too much older fusion anymore and prefered Return to Forever and Becks two albums or a bit later on, Dregs to Mahavishnu for some reason I cant pinpoint... except when Goodman or Hammer are improvising. Goodman slayed, Hammer was unique in presentation, wasnt crazy about McLaughlins ? .... dryness ? tone and well I think he was sloppy compared to Goodman or Hammer. Dont get me wrong I have no room to talk about sloppyness the guy slayed in his day, but something about Johns thing. He impressed me more on Friday night in SanFran but I'll admit that is more user friendly music.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

It does have Cobham but it has three other drummers as well, one doubling on percussion. McLaughlin is prominent throughout. It also has Chick Corea and Joe Zawinul on keys.

 

[razoredge]

Zawinul is another Im unfimiliar with... he went ? Weather report ?

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

yep, the project he helmed post Miles was indeed Weather Report. I'm not too big on Weather Report, however..

 

[razoredge]

There was only one WR album around and it wasnt mine. It was the one that had the song the Weather Station used for so long, if not still, more like smooth jazz. We were pretty big on Tropea they had a few awesome songs, but smoother, less radical than the earlier bands. My buddy popped in some old Tropea this past winter and I had forgotten about those tunes, I cant even think of them now or I'd try to find them......

 

[(((0)))]

You'd have to be deaf not to notice the tremendous jazzy influence on The Dark Side of the Moon, in the presentation of the music itself, the unusual meters and time signatures and the heavily improvised, free-form songs such as "The Great Gig in the Sky." Interestingly enough, the band's name is also derived from jazz musicians.

I should also take some time to mention that they were one of the first rock bands to employ concrete music as part of their albums, something that is now extremely commonplace.

Regardless, they don't sound "jazzy." A bang like Gang Gang Dance would not be actually a jazzy band, though they take influence from a ton of free-jazz and have fucked-up time signatures and are totally improvised. Oh, they based their name off of an obscure jazz record, but that is not worth much salt in this, though. There is an obvious difference in sound from free-jazz, and I would say the same about Pink Flyod. I understand that they might add aspects of jazz, but to say they are "jazzy" is not right. IMO.

I don't expect you to know music theory, but their songs are not rooted in the same theory at all.

 

[The Ozzman]

Zawinul was in Weather Report, yes

Check out Heavy Weather

 

[Omni]

Lol there is not at all a "tremendous" jazz influence on TDSOTM, it's one of their most pop based albums, and 'The Great Gig in the Sky' is a deliberately composed song based on a central piano melody which is more classically based if anything. Just because there's the occasional horn doesn't make it jazz. Stop talking shit.

It's actually a song reworked from an improvisational piece that they performed live before the recording of the album, reworked around a fully improvised vocal performance. You should consider knowing what you're talking about before talking about it. I'm also not sure why you're claiming that I said they played jazz, when I actually called it an influence on their music. It's also worth noting heavily improvised pieces containing elements of jazz and concrete music are found on Wish You Were Here as well.

 

[Omni]

I don't expect you to know music theory, but their songs are not rooted in the same theory at all.

You don't know music theory. You're just a tryhard 15-year-old hipster kid who can't play any instruments and only listens to the music that you do so that you can attempt to have an elite, hip taste offline and attempt to argue about it like you actually know anything online. The only person that you're fooling is yourself.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

I might say, if I were pushed, that 'Meddle' contains the most diversity of immediate influences that can be heard on any older Floyd album. It's also one of my favorites and probably the next place all the 'Dark Side' people should go.

 

[panzerfaust666]

@ Omni; Just because a song is improvisational doesnt mean it stems from Jazz. Blues could also be a influence in songs like that, certain Classical structures or simply an idea they had one day.