Controversial non-metal opinions

[(((0)))]

You don't know music theory. You're just a tryhard 15-year-old hipster kid who can't play any instruments and only listens to the music that you do so that you can attempt to have an elite, hip taste offline and attempt to argue about it like you actually know anything online. The only person that you're fooling is yourself.

You're just a fat, too-tight-cunt hipster who tries to fight back to gain cred from Matt. I know theory and I play guitar. I have excellent taste. You don't know shit about jazz. Why are you so preoccupied how "elitest" I am? You're only fooling yourself.

Sorry, I tried to be serious with Omni. Sorry. Truely. Obviously, I was right. You don't know shit about theory, Pink Flyod has very little that releates to jazz. I suggest you understand BASIC theory on that subject.

God, I am great.

 

[(((0)))]

@ Omni; Just because a song is improvisational doesnt mean it stems from Jazz. Blues could also be a influence in songs like that, certain Classical structures or simply an idea they had one day.

She obviously does not understand what comes from jazz and whatdoes not. I doubt she even listens to jazz.

I'm going to listen to Rashied Ali now.

Anyways, I have to take myself to sleep. I have a ACT practice test tomorrow. Take that Omni.

 

[Omni]

I know theory

I doubt it, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. It's highly unlikely especially that someone of your age group would be able to find classes on music theory.

By the way, you're stupid if you think that I don't listen to jazz, and for some reason people don't read the entirety of my statements if they think that I said or implied that jazz only relies on improvisation. I'd suggest that people read the last few posts that I made here again.

 

[TheInsane]

'Bitches Brew' will probably take a really long time tbh, especially if you haven't ventured much into early fusion and/or aren't a musician. The musician part is relevant because of how you can hear the creative synergy and flow of bizarre music the band creates, the chemistry in the jam sections, et al..being inspired by the huge 'brew' of it all and where it goes. But it's certainly pretty dissonant and I wouldn't feel too bad for still being kind of lost.

I am a musician which is largely a reason I did start to explore jazz. I love Mahavishnu Orchestra and Weather Report for example. Aside from that I havent really given time to explore one band/artist but I enjoy alot of the stuff I have heard on compilations.

I have to say that my main problem with jazz alot of the time is the use of the trumpet. Now Miles Davis oesnt use it like others do but I was never a big fan. Thats why I in general seem to prefer a more rocky set-up that doesnt include trumpets.

 

[challenge_everything]

It's actually a song reworked from an improvisational piece that they performed live before the recording of the album, reworked around a fully improvised vocal performance. You should consider knowing what you're talking about before talking about it. I'm also not sure why you're claiming that I said they played jazz, when I actually called it an influence on their music. It's also worth noting heavily improvised pieces containing elements of jazz and concrete music are found on Wish You Were Here as well.

What panzerfaust said. Just because a song is "improvised" does not make it jazz, there are no real jazz rhythms in TDSOTM and I wouldn't describe it as an element of their defining sound. As "improv" it is a long way removed from true jazz improv, a melody composed on the spur of the moment and some improv vocals does not come close to any of the improv solos you see in jazz. As an influence it seems to be fairly minor in their music compared to the psychadelic rock, folk and blues influences. Jazz had evidently seeped its way into prog rock by that stage, the freedom to mess around with time signatures and song structures, but I don't see it as having a direct, significant bearing on Floyd's music.

 

[razoredge]

Some of this transcript was a saddening experience, chill out on the what kind of person we all are stuff. First thing everybody needs to accept is that everybody is an asshole, once we accept that it is easily concievable to "get along" and converse in dignified manor.

Jazz influence is a tricky area but sounds similiar to jazz is less tricky. Floyd sounding similiar to jazz ? I cant hear it.

Jazz influence can be heard in Fusion. Fusion is different than Jazz, Mahavishnu, Return to Forever... not exactly "Jazz". Fusion origionally meant fusing the ideas and sound of jazz with that of more aggressive/progressive rock ideas and quickly spred out from there. In todays world by that defination everything could be called fusion becasue its been such a big melting pot. This makes it hard to draw a line between jazz and fusion because over the decade of the 70's Fusion reached into all kinds of genres and techniques and in ways became a new kind of jazz. (still not hearing any Pink Floyd when I think of the rootes of fusion). Then on the other hand many rock players were influenced by the skills posessed by fusion players. Examples... Yngwie has spoken of DiMeola, yet not alot of correlation between them in the sound of thier playing. Hendrix was quite impressed with McLaughlin and visa/versa but they played and sounded nothing alike. Hendrix was heavily inspired by free form jazz and that fact is present if anyone has what it takes to sit through the many live (and mostly painful) improv jams The Experience did. Does this mean they were playing jazz ? Or a hard rock version of the same principle that anything goes ? Balls to the wall, "everybody play a solo at the same time and dont worry if it gels or not".

Further examples of jazz intwined in rock around this more crucial period. Early Chicago, the horn arrangements were heavily tied to jazz and the horn players were highly skilled players, with rootes in jazz and classical/contempary classical. Yet members of Chicago repeatedly said they were a rock band not a jazz rock band... go figure, I thought they were kidding themselves on that one. They probably respected jazz too much to claim their progressions and groove had anything to do with jazz, which for the most part is true, but their horns sure jazzed things up.

Blues and Jazz - Blues is said to have stemmed from Jazz (or is it vica/versa ?) Anyhow jazz players had a form of jazz they called blues, it sounded nothing like "The Blues" but was more of Jazz that "had the blues" (down and out).

So anything on Dark Side, like the sax solos and vocal improv on Great Gig in the Sky, which basically mimmicked the sax, something Gilmour himself did quite well on guitar, may scream jazz to someone because that kind of improv is rooted in this kind of "blues" that jazz players had. None the less Floyd was far less rooted in Jazz than Chicago who totally denied any such claims... and both bands were far from anything fusion was at that time which does have true honest ties to Jazz.

I dont know why some mention time signatures, ELP (for example) played games with time signatures and displayed very little jazz influence, more toward classical, which is where all this theory came from in the first place. So jumping time sigs does not translate to "had to come from Jazz". That is an insult to the classical composers.

Another point of further jazz trickery.... early rock drummers of higher skill like Hendrix's Mitchell or Atomic Roosters Paul Hammond or Carl Palmer or Chicagos drummer where highly influenced by jazz drummers and showed it. Buddy Rich was still the hero of drummers back in those days. Yet these bands showed minimal connection to jazz groove/feel in their music.

I might have missed something but the idea of someone listening to Floyd in the 70's and saying "thats kind of jazzy" is something I just cant wrap my head around. They were a rock band, a "head" rock band to be more precise. Common term from the 70's was "head music" and that covered a somewhat diverse number of bands.

 

[Einherjar86]

You obviously don't know shit about jazz than, seeing as they don't have a very strong jazz sound. I am sure they digged jazz and employed it, but not enough for you to make that claim. They used "dynamic" compositions, but were pretty boring and pretentious. I'll avoid them.

And keep on listening to your immature, gratuitous, void-of-meaning Leftover Crack, right? You're bound for great things.

You'd have to be deaf not to notice the tremendous jazzy influence on The Dark Side of the Moon, in the presentation of the music itself, the unusual meters and time signatures and the heavily improvised, free-form songs such as "The Great Gig in the Sky." Interestingly enough, the band's name is also derived from jazz musicians.

I should also take some time to mention that they were one of the first rock bands to employ concrete music as part of their albums, something that is now extremely commonplace.

I think these comments have been misunderstood in this thread. Floyd was certainly influenced by jazz, but not in the sense that they were an improvisational, free-style jazz band. Their songs were carefully composed and orchestrated. However, many of their chord progressions (as well as patterns) were modeled of off jazz, and keyboardist Rick Wright was trained in jazz piano. His style blended together the techniques of jazz and classical. Hell, psychedelic music itself evolved out of jazz.

I would say that Omni is right, in some respect. Clare Torry improvised her part in "The Great Gig in the Sky," and Wright composed it, which is why it sounds so jazzy. While most of Dark Side (and much of their discography) sounds more like classic rock, much of it was spawned from jazz chords and scales.

 

[razoredge]

Spawned from jazz ? If you say so

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/g...e-online-piano-lessons-sheet-music/3410664375

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/p/pink_floyd/great_gig_in_the_sky_crd.htm

 

[Einherjar86]

I say so.

 

[razoredge]

The only chords I see there that are primarily jazz or pop use are Maj7's because they are so perty. The rest, minor 7's, 9ths and flat 5's are used in blues, rock, classical and who knows what else. Jazz is a whole nother ballgame, far beyond simple chord structure.

That said this piece of music still blows me away, brings me to my knees as it did when I first heard it. I dont think these girls match the performance Claire gave. They seem to get lossed in the sause, hers was pure and perfect.... the most moving piece of music I've heard. That my friends is power
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBWY3bli92Y&feature=related[/ame]

 

[challenge_everything]

razor, hell of an essay you've got there, but I agree with all that.

 

[Einherjar86]

I think everyone's defining jazz too strictly. Jazz went through several different phases and transitions; there's bebop, fushion, Creole (New Orleans), free style (avant-garde)...

Jazz can be described and played in many different ways, and Pink Floyd definitely incorporate an element of "jazz" sound into their music. Rick Wright uses a wide variety of modal chords, and a lot of his compositions could be said to emulate a "cool jazz" sound. In fact, I would say that Dark Side has an overall smooth, "cool jazz" feel.

 

[razoredge]

razor, hell of an essay you've got there, but I agree with all that.

Yeah, I get screwed for explaining things so it takes... forever

 

[razoredge]

I think everyone's defining jazz too strictly. Jazz went through several different phases and transitions; there's bebop, fushion, Creole (New Orleans), free style (avant-garde)...

This is a very good point and you even left out Glenn Millers swing, which was highly critiqued in its day for its "commercialism" by hardcore jazzheads. It is and has been a diverse genre yet always comes off sounding jazzy. Something I cant find in Floyd outside of the stuff (sax solos, great gig, ect.) I already covered.

Jazz can be described and played in many different ways, and Pink Floyd definitely incorporate an element of "jazz" sound into their music. Rick Wright uses a wide variety of modal chords, and a lot of his compositions could be said to emulate a "cool jazz" sound. In fact, I would say that Dark Side has an overall smooth, "cool jazz" feel.

Someone would have to take Wrights progressions and jive them up some along with Masons drum beats before they would come close to sounding like jazz. As they have been recorded it was a rock format. I'd even venture to say anybody into Floyd outside of more experimental musicians, prolly cant stand pure jazz. I may very well be one of them as the more "out there" stuff is nothing more than a respected curiosity to me.

I did talk about Floyd possibly having a influence on later smooth jazz. But prior and I'll admit lots of uncertainty in this... too me earilier smooth jazz would have been more like the more laid back stuff Pass did, or alot of the music that has been called "standards" for years, like early Sanatra, Ella and such which were balades of jazz or commercialized jazz, the pop of the era. Now I can hear Ella in great gig... vocally but I dont hear jazz in the music.

I find this an interesting subject and would gladly surrender to my ignorance if someone could produce a clip from a song predating Floyd that sounded Floyd-ish. I pointed to some Ponty that post dated Floyd that sounded Floyd-ish but Im sad to say it did not sound very jazzy but more progressive.

Myself, I hear more jazz in Little Feet or Skynards "I know a Little" than I do Pink Floyd. Jazz is a feel, not a chord structure.

OK, here you go.... Steely Dan, post Katy Lied, now there is some rock you can definantly hear jazz in. I'd say they may well have a strong presence in current smooth jazz.

 

[panzerfaust666]

Oh Steely Dan definitely has a huge impact on smooth jazz.

 

[Einherjar86]

Someone would have to take Wrights progressions and jive them up some along with Masons drum beats before they would come close to sounding like jazz. As they have been recorded it was a rock format. I'd even venture to say anybody into Floyd outside of more experimental musicians, prolly cant stand pure jazz. I may very well be one of them as the more "out there" stuff is nothing more than a respected curiosity to me.

I did talk about Floyd possibly having a influence on later smooth jazz. But prior and I'll admit lots of uncertainty in this... too me earilier smooth jazz would have been more like the more laid back stuff Pass did, or alot of the music that has been called "standards" for years, like early Sanatra, Ella and such which were balades of jazz or commercialized jazz, the pop of the era. Now I can hear Ella in great gig... vocally but I dont hear jazz in the music.

I find this an interesting subject and would gladly surrender to my ignorance if someone could produce a clip from a song predating Floyd that sounded Floyd-ish. I pointed to some Ponty that post dated Floyd that sounded Floyd-ish but Im sad to say it did not sound very jazzy but more progressive.

Hmmm... maybe I'll have to do some searching.

I may have been focusing too much on Wright's style in my argument. Overall, the music certainly has a "rock" feel; I was only implying that you can definitely hear jazz influences in their sound, especially in Wright's playing.

They're by no means a "jazz" band. They're a rock band; but I still think there are traces of jazz in their sound.

 

[Orion Crystal Ice]

Jazzy is basically what people say stuff is when they can't figure out how to otherwise classify it.

 

[razoredge]

Hmmm... maybe I'll have to do some searching.

I may have been focusing too much on Wright's style in my argument. Overall, the music certainly has a "rock" feel; I was only implying that you can definitely hear jazz influences in their sound, especially in Wright's playing.

They're by no means a "jazz" band. They're a rock band; but I still think there are traces of jazz in their sound.

You came into it kind of late and speaking for myself I was still focusing on the origions of the conversation which was

Their compositions make incredible use of dynamic range and highly original and often complex, jazzy song structures. I'm not sure that they're just decent on a music level.

I totally agree with the more than "just decent" part, dynamic range but less and less on the others

followed by

You'd have to be deaf not to notice the tremendous jazzy influence on The Dark Side of the Moon, in the presentation of the music itself, the unusual meters and time signatures and the heavily improvised, free-form songs such as "The Great Gig in the Sky."

tremendous jazzy ?
Great gig in the sky.... free form ? Certainly not your typical pop progression but not whats considered "free form" either, very progressive, yes. Its also common for higher skilled musicians to nail their best solos quickly as Claire did on this song
Unusual meters and time sigs ? does not = jazz
heavily improvised - huge jams were common place at this time in rock... mostly because many bands just didnt know what else to do to make full records... lol... I still loved them though. This was obviously not too much the case with Floyd at least by the time of Darkside, they were excellent at keeping you "trippin" if you engaged the song

I dont think Im deaf, jazzy just does not fit Floyd, awesomely deep vision works for me.

 

[(((0)))]

I doubt it, and I challenge you to prove me wrong. It's highly unlikely especially that someone of your age group would be able to find classes on music theory.

By the way, you're stupid if you think that I don't listen to jazz, and for some reason people don't read the entirety of my statements if they think that I said or implied that jazz only relies on improvisation. I'd suggest that people read the last few posts that I made here again.

Considering that any decent guitar lessons come with a pretty in-depth study of music theory, it is not absurd to think I know a fair amount about how music is made. The chords that people have talked about prove my point. Pink Floyd make like jazz, but they certainly do not sound jazzy. I don't think you were implying that they are jazz because of improvisation, but mostly on the jazz sound in general.

I don't think you even like jazz.

And keep on listening to your immature, gratuitous, void-of-meaning Leftover Crack, right? You're bound for great things.

How is LoC void of meaning? All there albums have actual ideologies behind them and dedication to what they stand for. Granted, they are not the most "gifted" song-writers and are more pop-punk. I don't think you properly understand my music taste. It's better than your overblown progrock.

 

[Omni]

This conversation has gotten to the point where it's so ridiculous that I actually don't want to reply anymore, so this is the last that I'll speak about it.

Nowhere did I call Pink Floyd a jazz band, despite challenge_everything repeatedly saying that I did. Nowhere did I call jazz Pink Floyd's primary influence, despite challenge_everything repeatedly saying that I did. It's pretty funny that you misconstrue everything just for the sake of having something to argue with, since it really is fucking gay and stupid.

They're undoubtedly influenced by jazz music, the band has cited it themselves, and you can find countless essays that will cite that as one of the proponents of bringing certain elements of jazz into the progressive rock spectrum. Once again, I didn't say jazz is their primary influence, nor did I call them jazz. So please don't argue against these two statements, as I didn't say them. It's getting tiresome and silly, and it makes me wonder why reading my posts is so difficult for some people.

I also don't recall saying that jazz is all about improvisation, yet people kept telling me that it wasn't for some unexplained reason. I'm not sure exactly why.

In addition to jazz, they obviously take influence from psychedelic music, blues, funk and concrete music styles.

I suppose part of the fault lies in my original post being fairly rushed and not as written as well as I'd like, but you invented a lot of strange things to argue about in this thread for absolutely no reason other than your refusal to actually read before posting.