SX and Paradise Lost = Satanic ??

Don't bunch me into this, I've been avoiding this thread for a reason. I was just making a joke/reference to family guy. Mel Gibson walks off of the edge of mount rushmore, Lois says something about how she can't believe he just walked right off the side of a mountain, peter says something to the effect of, "of course he did...Christians don't believe in gravity". Again, joke.

I'm sure someone else who cares and/or has already wasted enough time in this thread will come along and explain why Gravity can't be lumped into the same category as God. Have fun guys.
 
^^

Actually it's more like "I can't see God, or it's affects, or any reason for it to exist".
 
I wasn't there, but I would say that current theories indicate yes.

But if God didnt tell us that he must not have and simple deduction would conclude that if he did every star would have a planetary system with a planet with the perfect environment to place more perfect images of himself to grovel at his feet.... invisable feet that is

Well its all too complicated so lets stick to this planet

Did God create the Dinosaurs ?
 
How big is the universe ?

I could answer this one actually. Preference of units? Astronomy 104 uses the Red Shift doppler phenomena, known distances to stars from other stars, triangulation, and a couple universal constants (G being one of them) to calculate an estimated universal diameter. Most estimates put this at 28gigaparsecs for the lower end, with a higher end quite a bit wider. That's 92 billion light years. Which means that at the speed of light in a vaccuum C (another of those constants, roughly 3x10 to the 8th meters per second), it would take light from one end 92 billion years to reach the other. This is only the VISIBLE boundary. The actual boundary is somewhat higher.

I want to stay out of this thread, but some of the "proofs" and demands are so unreasonable that it's almost too tempting to resist correction, or should I rephrase as, elaboration. Correction usually meets with angry juvenile angst.

So I'll just answer this simple question instead. Remember though razor, this is just an estimate based on a model to give you an idea. If the universe fits the expanding model, then this number is never going to be correct as it will always be increasing.
 
If god was real, why would he choose only to reveal himself to ancient man? Why not split a mountain in half, proclaim that he is Yahweh, your god. Today. Why choose such ambiguity? Why pick a time when human ignorance is so high. A time when people filled their lack of knowledge with stories about dragons that lived in the sea and that the world was flat? Why would a super intelligent creator create billions and billions of stars across billions of light years and care who you have sex with? Is this some sort of sick game? Many Africans have now converted to Christianity, but why do they still suffer? Why do Christians suffer at the hand of this loving god?

Does the bible contain a single phrase or sentence that could NOT have been written by ancient man? A sentence such as: Photons share a wave/particle duality. If I created a universe with a billion billion stars, black holes, collapsing stars etc I sure as hell would make my processes known.

If I live an excellent life and was kind and caring towards others will I burn in hell because I am an Atheist? If another person murdered, lied and cheated his way through life and then professed his eternal love for this creator will he go to heaven?

These are questions I have asked myself many times.

If heaven is a place full of evangelical Christians, send me to the hottest pit in hell.

Also, Kenneth I didn't know the universe was that big.. damn!
 
That same thing has bothered me Noble....... its like.... OK..... Hello..... where are you now... oh great one ? They took care of this issue in the New Testiment..... so we are bacisally on our own and expected not to question because Jesus gave his life..... end of story. So we were supposed to remain dumb sheep cowering in the dark and not become more advanced in the understanding of the history of the planet and solar system or we were supposed to become so smart that when more knowledge was discovered we would be more able to see God for ourselves. Maybe another imperfection in the plan, I just cant say..... wasnt there......

"Everyones waiting for the New World
How long till the New World comes? " from a Crack the Sky song

Ken, I did not know anyone had determined the approx size of the Universe.... are you fuckin with me ? .... lol
Thats not where I was really going with it anyhow, it was really more about how many other civilizations were out there bowing to "our" God.
 
Here are some more "elaborations"

God got told on Mount Sinai by the people there that they could not handle him. They told Moses zomg, make him go away. We want him around but we can't deal face to face. God said fine.

Making his knowledge known would empower a morally deficient race (us) with the means to obliterate ourselves and everything else. Bad idea.

I can address the suffering question as well, but that is philosophy and requires premise and analysis. Only if you want it.
 
Exactly. Why so many can't see it this way, I don't know.

Imo. The real questions are:

How did universe and therefor life come to exist?
Why does universe exist?
Why does life exist?

Ofcourse, it's quite useless to ask the last two questions as no one can have a sensible answer to them. The first one seems just as impossible though. Where did the materia come from? Has all the stuff always been here?
The universe came from:

A. A Big bang out of nothing.
B. A Big bang out of the collapsed nexus of a previous universe.

But if it's B, the question is recursive. So the only real answer that could make any sense (though it seems silly) is:

C. Either A or B happened using energy/matter from a higher or lower universe.

Again with C, you can't explain an ultimate origin. But it does explain the origin of the universe according to the dimensions we understand. Not a satisfactory answer, but evades the recursivity and doesn't defy thermodynamics.

Why does it exist? Is a philosophical question. I have a theory if it is desired.
 
sure I like theorys

the thing that gets me about the universe, aside from being super colossal, when you go into the big bang, then its... well what went bang and what caused that to be everywhere. Infinity might actually be the scaryest thing I can think of. Like watching an astranaut in a movie float off
 
Human suffering, according to the problem of evil. This is a classic philosophical issue.

The problem of evil, in formal terms, of your question, is:

1. Evil Exists. (Suffering)
2. God is supposed to be Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent.
Thus:
3. God does not exist.

I think we can all easily see that bad things happen to people. People die. They are killed by other people and by natural events. One can argue for two kinds of evil: Evil caused by natural events, and evil caused willfully.

Are we going to blame God for incidents in which one person willfully does evil on another? Some would argue yes, God could step in and stop it. But if God always stopped you from committing evil, you would have no free will. Not only would you lack free will, but the world that God created, supposedly in our interest as an omnibenevolent being, would lack moral significance. It would lack significance because no matter your choice, you would be forced to do good. (God steps in). As God is also supposed to be omnipotent and omniscient, he would by definition also know how to create the best possible world, and be capable of doing so. Evil done by humans increases the moral significance of our world. The choice between good and bad is more significant when there are many more bad choices. If we still choose good, then we prove our character even more so than if there were few bad choices. Furthermore, this world allows for freedom of will. But what about the victim? Again, it provides an opportunity for moral character. Instead of retaliating, if the victim forgives the assailant, moral significance is gained. Again a choice is presented.

So we move on to natural suffering. Disease, disasters, and such. Human choices are not responsible here. Why would God allow an earthquake to destroy a city? In this situation, we identify two potential benefits of the event: the first is that it gives knowledge of how to do evil. That may seem detrimental to you. Let me give an example. I witness a rock fall on somebody and they die. I now know that rocks falling on people can kill them. With this knowledge, I have acquired a new way to kill people. But if I resist doing that, it increases my moral character as I have just chosen between good and bad. Such choices occur daily. We understand that lightning is fatal, thus electric chairs. We understand that punctures are fatal, thus swords, guns, and so on. Given knowledge, we can do evil. Resisting that evil grants us further moral significance. The second benefit is the knowledge of preparation. If I know that when the ground shakes, a volcano is going to erupt, then in the future, I will run when I feel the ground shaking. If I understand that certain types of terrain are succeptible to mudslide, I will not build my village there. This preparatory knowledge actually saves people.

So the refute to the defense of God against the existence of evil: Come up with a situation in which people do not learn from the suffering (even in time, suppose bones are discovered- this counts as learning when they figure out how the person died), and in which the suffering does not present a new means for which evil can be inflicted.


Edit: THIS is how I like to debate. No kiddie jokes, no BS name calling, just pure philosophy with premise, conclusion, evidence and counters. I'll post up the Universe one tomorrow, work tonight.
 
Nah, I would simply attribute the natural suffering across the planet to the planet and its geological issues. Even assuming God made the thing as claimed in the bible a molten core and massive rock plates somethings going to give, which as we know is how the earth got a large percentage of its surface shape we see today.

As for starvation in certain areas, people just have to realize some areas of the globe are no longer very good for habitation and less children might just help... this is where the Witnesses crack me up, but I have friends that are Witnesses and I love em. This doesnt mean I want all the people from these "famished" places here. Bible says thou shalt not covet they neighbors house, so biblically they are not allowed...... [devious lol ]