The Barack Obama review/critique thread

[Death Aflame]

Rabbit trail from arguing you have options if you don't like how your employer treats you. The point is still that unions are bad and Obama shouldn't be supporting them.

According to this story, Obama's campaign received over $30 million in donations from the Service Employees International Union (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/...ave-free-choice-to-change-unions-under-obama/).

 

[waif]

Ok, heres a brief list of extremely successful people who did not need a college education to succeed. You can't modify with " and no money" because there are tons of loans, both private and government provided for starting up businesses, Ok, heres a brief list of extremely successful people who did not need a college education to succeed. You can't modify with " and no money" because there are tons of loans, both private and government provided for starting up businesses, not to mention saving capitol while working for someone else etc:

Mary Kay Ash (Mary Kay)
Richard Branson (Virgin)
Coco Chanel (Chanel)
Simon Cowell (Sony Exec, Americon Idol, producer)
Michael Dell (Dell)
Barry Diller (FOX, Expedia, CEO of InterActiveCorp)
Walt Disney (Duh)
Debbi Fields (Mrs Field's)
HENRY FORD (Duh)
BILL GATES (Duh)
Milton Hershey (Duh)
Steve Jobs (Duh)
Rachel Ray (TV personality)
Ty Warner (Ty, Inc. [Beanie Babies, etc.])
Frank Lloyd Wright (Successful Architect)

OBVIOUSLY not everyone can be a Bill Gates or a Henry Ford, but that is beside the point. Even if you were 1/100 as successful as the people on this list you would be doing quite well. etc:

Mary Kay Ash (Mary Kay)
Richard Branson (Virgin)
Coco Chanel (Chanel)
Simon Cowell (Sony Exec, Americon Idol, producer)
Michael Dell (Dell)
Barry Diller (FOX, Expedia, CEO of InterActiveCorp)
Walt Disney (Duh)
Debbi Fields (Mrs Field's)
HENRY FORD (Duh)
BILL GATES (Duh)
Milton Hershey (Duh)
Steve Jobs (Duh)
Rachel Ray (TV personality)
Ty Warner (Ty, Inc. [Beanie Babies, etc.])
Frank Lloyd Wright (Successful Architect)

OBVIOUSLY not everyone can be a Bill Gates or a Henry Ford, but that is beside the point. Even if you were 1/100 as successful as the people on this list you would be doing quite well.

The sentence in bold indicates a profound lack of understanding of what a subsistence wage is.
Now then, you have used a bunch of people who got really really lucky and were in the right place at the right time to use their above-average intelligence to get ahead. I'm not suggesting there should be a union for these guys. The union is for the average guy with no choice but to work for some industrial behemoth. Thus, saying that people can get absurdly lucky isn't really relevant.

 

[MasterOLightning]

To show a dozen or so extremely successful and lucky people perpetuates the "American Dream" bullshit that is so bad for our country. The percentage of people who become phenomenally successful from basically nothing is minuscule. Might as well suggest people go win the lottery. Meanwhile, educated people who come from money are extremely likely to have successful lives and the opportunity to choose their path. The "American Dream" only serves to reduce morale in the people who got fucked, and discourages them from actively working to change the system.

On topic: I like this salary cap on executives very much. It should be more severe, frankly, but it's a good start.

 

[Dak]

To show a dozen or so extremely successful and lucky people perpetuates the "American Dream" bullshit that is so bad for our country. The percentage of people who become phenomenally successful from basically nothing is minuscule. Might as well suggest people go win the lottery. Meanwhile, educated people who come from money are extremely likely to have successful lives and the opportunity to choose their path. The "American Dream" only serves to reduce morale in the people who got fucked, and discourages them from actively working to change the system.

On topic: I like this salary cap on executives very much. It should be more severe, frankly, but it's a good start.

I put the addendum on the end of the list to preclude this type of response but obviously it was ignored.I will repeat it,in fact I will lower the fraction of success and it still makes my point. I would also point out that list not even close to exhaustive.

OBVIOUSLY not everyone can be a Bill Gates or a Henry Ford, but that is beside the point. Even if you were 1/1000 as successful as the people on this list you would be doing quite well.

No one said it wasn't hard. No one said someone who starts with more money won't have it any easier. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It is a good thing the people who crossed the Atlantic to get here or pioneered the west etc. weren't as lazy and whiney as exhibited by Unions and their defenders.

Edit:

@WAIF: Please embolden what you are pointing out.

 

[Dak]

Obama and the Economic Stimulus

Talk about fear-mongering. It's a repeat of Bush and the War on Terror.

 

[Death Aflame]

To show a dozen or so extremely successful and lucky people perpetuates the "American Dream" bullshit that is so bad for our country. The percentage of people who become phenomenally successful from basically nothing is minuscule. Might as well suggest people go win the lottery. Meanwhile, educated people who come from money are extremely likely to have successful lives and the opportunity to choose their path. The "American Dream" only serves to reduce morale in the people who got fucked, and discourages them from actively working to change the system.

.

 

[The Ozzman]

On topic: I like this salary cap on executives very much. It should be more severe, frankly, but it's a good start.

How much more severe? I think 500k is the perfect amount. I would be fine with 400k as that's what the President makes, but saying it should be something like 100k is really pushing it.

 

[MasterOLightning]

How much more severe? I think 500k is the perfect amount. I would be fine with 400k as that's what the President makes, but saying it should be something like 100k is really pushing it.

I was thinking more in terms of the number of people who the cap applies to. Right now I believe it only for banks who received bailout money. I think it should be expanded to any business that laid off x% of their workforce.

 

[The Ozzman]

I think it should be expanded to any business that laid off x% of their workforce.

I think I know where you're going with this, but could you explain your reasoning?

 

[MasterOLightning]

How many extra jobs could a company hold on to if the CEO had his pay slashed? Not to mention that laying people off is an indicator of performance, and the CEO should be accountable in some way. They certainly like to take responsibility when things go well. It seems better for everyone if fewer people go on unemployment, and slashing executive salaries doesn't really hurt them too badly. Even with that cap they are in the top 1% of wages.

 

[The Ozzman]

Well, some executive salaries are actually less than 500k. The kicker is that most of the money they get is from stock options or selling shares of stock. I think the guideline is that TOTAL compensation not exceed 500k, so this can include bonuses

 

[MasterOLightning]

I like how there's a stipulation that the stock options can't be sold until the government gets their money back.

 

[The Ozzman]

I think it's just shares of stock right now.

 

[Dak]

How many extra jobs could a company hold on to if the CEO had his pay slashed? Not to mention that laying people off is an indicator of performance, and the CEO should be accountable in some way. They certainly like to take responsibility when things go well. It seems better for everyone if fewer people go on unemployment, and slashing executive salaries doesn't really hurt them too badly. Even with that cap they are in the top 1% of wages.

Well considering the majority of the companies that these CEOs work for produce nothing, what would hiring more people accomplish? So you may be handing out paychecks, but if it is merely for extra people to push papers around or sit on their ass we haven't accomplished anything.

Ignoring the root problems in the system and trying to fix the natural effects is going to be misguided and solve nothing in the long run.

 

[waif]

How much more severe? I think 500k is the perfect amount. I would be fine with 400k as that's what the President makes, but saying it should be something like 100k is really pushing it.

I was about to call you out on this until I saw this:

The kicker is that most of the money they get is from stock options or selling shares of stock. I think the guideline is that TOTAL compensation not exceed 500k, so this can include bonuses

So yeah. I mean, many of them honestly don't do shit and you can go around making claims that they don't deserve the money or w/e but then you just head towards communism. I think a total compensation package of 500k would be fine. The thing is, they have tons of ways of bullshitting around this, like serving on boards that are theoretically unrelated to their job as executives, or stuff of that nature, that amounts to just giving them money.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Obama: "I think I screwed up"

On Tuesday, United States President Barack Obama saw two of his cabinet nominations withdraw from consideration after issues with their taxes became public knowledge.

Former Senator Tom Daschle from South Dakota withdrew after it was revealed he failed to pay US$128,203 in taxes. He has since made the payment including a $11,964 interest payment. Obama had nominated him as the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

Nancy Killefer, whom Obama had appointed to the newly created position of Chief Performance Officer, withdrew her nomination because she had failed to pay payroll taxes on a household employee.

"I think I screwed up," Obama said in an interview with CNN. "And, I take responsibility for it and we're going to make sure we fix it so it doesn't happen again."

Last week, Timothy F. Geithner survived his nomination and was confirmed as Secretary of the Treasury, even though it was revealed that he had failed to pay $34,000 in taxes on income earned while working for the International Monetary Fund.

Nothing like more sketchy public figures to add to the list of Obama's "question marks".

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

He really needs to learn how to vet people.

 

[Dak]

He also needs to learn to respect other's time:

Obama Time

Habitually late people either have a discipline/organizational/planning problem, or just don't give a fuck about other people. So which is it here?

I don't buy this "He is too intellectually stimulated to be on time" bs. Sure it isn't one of the "issues" facing America, but being prompt is still important.

 

[The Ozzman]

I remember Obama saying that he wasn't good at organization and had to hire people to help him be organized during his campaign.

 

[MasterOLightning]

You guys haven't heard of "black time"?