The Barack Obama review/critique thread

[Orion Crystal Ice]

Like a lot of discussions on here, people are oddly rabid at jumping at one another's throats at this point in the thread, but I just wanted to say that despite this, with this union branching off there are many many good points from every 'side' to consider. Personally, I think there's too many there to boldly align with one strict 'side'. Maybe Obama has, and I'm sure he has much valid reasoning, but nobody is right about everything all the time, either.

Just trying to sort of get people to really read between things here and see there's more than just black-and-white to think on with an issue such as this.

 

[waif]

@Dakryn: the government does not do enough to protect workers at all. And what the government does do: how the fuck do you think that got done? Maybe by the political power of unions? Gee...

 

[skeptik]

Barack Obama supports the Steelers and is therefore the greatest president ever.

 

[Dak]

@Dakryn: the government does not do enough to protect workers at all. And what the government does do: how the fuck do you think that got done? Maybe by the political power of unions? Gee...

We could go round and round on this, but I am for employer power, not employee power and you obviously believe workers rate some kind of special consideration over the employer. I am against minimum wage for that matter, since it contributes to inflation.
Unions have been very successful in achieving overcompensation for workers and tying the hands of the people who created the job to start with, driving up costs across the board for everyone.

 

[Dak]

Jon Stewart's take on Obama's Inaugural Speech

 

[waif]

We could go round and round on this, but I am for employer power, not employee power and you obviously believe workers rate some kind of special consideration over the employer. I am against minimum wage for that matter, since it contributes to inflation.
Unions have been very successful in achieving overcompensation for workers and tying the hands of the people who created the job to start with, driving up costs across the board for everyone.

...which is why factory workers are just living the high life, in't?

Why are you for employer power when it's been demonstrated time and again that given free reign employers will create brutal and dehumanizing environments and a system of wage slavery?

 

[Dak]

...which is why factory workers are just living the high life, in't?

Why are you for employer power when it's been demonstrated time and again that given free reign employers will create brutal and dehumanizing environments and a system of wage slavery?

Yes, all employers are big bad evil men who just want to make their employee's life miserable.

Like I said, if someone doesn't like how their boss runs their business, try running one yourself, or find someone who you think does it better that you would like to work for.

 

[waif]

What makes you think that someone with no more than a high school diploma and no money can start a business?

 

[Dak]

What makes you think that someone with no more than a high school diploma and no money can start a business?

/facepalm.

You want me to rip that statement to shreds or do you want to do a little research on successful high-school(or less) educated entrepeneurs first and retract it?

 

[Matt]

Like I said, if someone doesn't like how their boss runs their business, try running one yourself, or find someone who you think does it better that you would like to work for.

Say you are a 18 year old hs grad working at McDonalds during an economic recession. You don't get paid anything and your boss treats you horribly, but your grades weren't good enough to get into college and you probably couldn't afford to, anyway. Would you seriously up and leave your current occupation to start your own business? Because getting a loan is real easy, especially for an 18 year old bum with no credit history and no capital. And how exactly would you go about running a business yourself? I mean, usually it takes years to even make it a managerial position if you are a great employee. I know no company will hire a manager without a college diploma or work experience.

 

[Omni]

Congratulations on adding nothing.

I congratulate you for the same. You're making a really bad generalization about unions because a member of your family was threatened by one a long time ago. I'm sure that many unions do take advantage of employers, but I'm pretty sure that there are a far greater number that exist for the purpose of defening the rights of workers and ensuring that they receive equal treatment and respect from their employers.

My father was a union worker in New York City for over 20 years, and non-union workers frequently experienced poor treatment at the hands of employers, while the union members were protected by their solidarity.

I've also been part of a union, although ours was much smaller and localized, and this union helped ensure that the employer we worked for treated us fairly and equally. Non-union employees were treated tolerably, although they didn't receive the same type of representation if they were disciplined and they weren't guaranteed the same consistency of work schedules as us since they were left to the mercy of the employer rather than granted something that they probably should have been able to have in the first place.

So while you may be right in some cases, you're definitely wrong in many more, though your argument seems to neglect that fact in favor of the negative aspects of a small percentage of unionized labor.

 

[Dak]

Say you are a 18 year old hs grad working at McDonalds during an economic recession. You don't get paid anything and your boss treats you horribly, but your grades weren't good enough to get into college and you probably couldn't afford to, anyway. Would you seriously up and leave your current occupation to start your own business? Because getting a loan is real easy, especially for an 18 year old bum with no credit history and no capital. And how exactly would you go about running a business yourself? I mean, usually it takes years to even make it a managerial position if you are a great employee. I know no company will hire a manager without a college diploma or work experience.

#1. I didn't say it was easy. That is the point. It wasn't easy for the Ray Kroc to pioneer fast-food restaurant franchising. Also, success doesn't usually happen over night, and most people lack the self discipline to A. Put forth extra effort B. Follow through. Those big bad mean employers, however did A and B so who the fuck is the employee to demand extra pay, usually for doing a job that could be filled be any joe-schmo off the street.

#2. Manager is pretty vague. Section manager? Store manager? District manager? etc. I have a younger brother who made section manager at Lowe's HIW within 2 years in a high profile store, and without a college diploma, and he is expecting to get promoted again at the end of the year. It is the difference between the average lazy American and someone who works their ass off to get what they want/get ahead. "Can't do" or "Won't do" attitudes plague western society today and your post and WAIFs and others are excellent examples. All I hear is "But that's more difficult!". No Shit.

The average American wants shit handed to them and things done for them. Having something handed to you can be in the form of a check you didn't work for at all (Welfare), or getting overcompensated for work you did (part of what Unions accomplish).

I congratulate you for the same. You're making a really bad generalization about unions because a member of your family was threatened by one a long time ago. I'm sure that many unions do take advantage of employers, but I'm pretty sure that there are a far greater number that exist for the purpose of defening the rights of workers and ensuring that they receive equal treatment and respect from their employers.

My father was a union worker in New York City for over 20 years, and non-union workers frequently experienced poor treatment at the hands of employers, while the union members were protected by their solidarity.

I've also been part of a union, although ours was much smaller and localized, and this union helped ensure that the employer we worked for treated us fairly and equally. Non-union employees were treated tolerably, although they didn't receive the same type of representation if they were disciplined and they weren't guaranteed the same consistency of work schedules as us since they were left to the mercy of the employer rather than granted something that they probably should have been able to have in the first place.

So while you may be right in some cases, you're definitely wrong in many more, though your argument seems to neglect that fact in favor of the negative aspects of a small percentage of unionized labor.

#1. The little personal anecdote is really a side-issue, not the main foundational flaw, and really has no bearing on my general opinion of unions.

#2. Think about what you just said. Union employees got extra benefits and better scheduling than non-union workers. Without a union involved, most employers use scheduling (as well as extra pay and benefits) as a reward for their productive employees. The union takes that out of the equation and forces the employer to automatically shaft the non-union emplyees in a situation where not all employees belong to the union, and treat the shitty employees equally to the productive ones. How fucking unethical and pathetic is that? Same concept applies to handing out extra pay/benefits to union members vice non-members.

You clearly don't understand the foundational flaw, as you just explained many reasons why unions are bad and think its great.

 

[Omni]

Bad employees receive discipline in most proper workplaces, so the fact that they'll receive equal treatment in all other areas to everyone else isn't something that you can consider a real problem.

Not to mention the fact that rewards for supposedly being more productive are generally favoritism and not actually due to any kind of superior work performance, and it would be possible for very good employees to be discriminated against due to gender, race, age, sexual orientation or any other number of factors if the company was left wholly in charge of how individual employees were treated, and for the record, this is occurs to some extent in nearly all work situations that match the frame that you're claiming is superior.

 

[Dak]

Bad employees receive discipline in most proper workplaces, so the fact that they'll receive equal treatment in all other areas to everyone else isn't something that you can consider a real problem.

There is a difference between breaking a rule, and doing as little as possible at work. Most people fall into the latter category, yet they want more pay, and unions achieve this for them through mob tactics.

Not to mention the fact that rewards for supposedly being more productive are generally favoritism and not actually due to any kind of superior work performance,

Sure favoritism happens for non-productive reasons, but many times I have seen someone accused of being a brown-noser who was actually just a out going hardworker, and the people mad about it were the slackers who were being made to look like the slackers they were.
Regardless, instances of favoritism should quite honestly be an employers prerogative. IE: If I ran a business and wanted to hook my brother up, I should be able to. Could that cause problems for me in the future? Probably. But if someone was mad that they were getting paid less than my brother, they can go find another job, unless they are difficult to replace and then I would probably give them a raise on their merit if they protested rather than have to re-train someone.

and it would be possible for very good employees to be discriminated against due to gender, race, age, sexual orientation or any other number of factors if the company was left wholly in charge of how individual employees were treated, and for the record, this is occurs to some extent in nearly all work situations that match the frame that you're claiming is superior.

So? I don't know where the anti-discrimination mindset started, but it irritates me to no end. If someone runs a business, and they decide they don't want _____ type of person working for them, they should have the control over their business to refuse to hire someone, or refuse service to someone. It is THEIR business. Is discrimination ethically wrong? Doesn't matter. If I refuse to hire someone, or deliver services to someone for _______ reason, my competition can capitalize on their labor/business.

Don't try to drag up the early/mid 20th century as an example of how this doesn't work. Completely different situation, since the very laws themselves inhibited racial minorities from competing on an equal playing field.

 

[The Ozzman]

I didn't know there was a union for people who are cunts all the time. Fascinating.

 

[AchrisK]

unions are fail. There was a time they were needed, but that time is gone. Now they are just one more way for people to flex the entitlement mindset. That mindset only leads to failure in any big picture. Where I work there was a big strike by the unions and while the union workers were gone, and engineers and other people took over some tasks, it was determined that less people could easily do the job that the union people were doing. Unions ARE hiding places for lazy people. That is not to say only lazy people are in them. They are also a hindrance to the success of businesses.

 

[Dak]

unions are fail. There was a time they were needed, but that time is gone. Now they are just one more way for people to flex the entitlement mindset. That mindset only leads to failure in any big picture. Where I work there was a big strike by the unions and while the union workers were gone, and engineers and other people took over some tasks, it was determined that less people could easily do the job that the union people were doing. Unions ARE hiding places for lazy people. That is not to say only lazy people are in them. They are also a hindrance to the success of businesses.

Precisely.

 

[AchrisK]

^Sweet Matrix quote.

 

[Dak]

I listen to people defend unions and all I get are the following mental images:

 

[Dak]

What do profits from war have to do with the union issue? For example:The debate over whether or not one of the reasons we invaded Iraq was for Cheney to help out his old buddies at Haliburton has nothing to do with how well their employees are treated. (BTW, Haliburton employees working in Iraq get paid/treated quite well).

The above picture is a glaring red herring.