MasterOLightning
Optimator
I'm sure there are criticisms to be made about the Fed. But the Zeitgeist film is not a credible source.
The Barack Obama review/critique thread
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Dak
mentat
The first segment of that Zeitgeist:Addendum film explains the current "federal reserve"-government/economy relationship pretty accurately. The other stuff they go into and their conclusions on root causes etc are all something else.
Look up what Andrew Jackson did to the pre-cursor to the Federal Reserve and all the stuff he said about "outsourcing" the power to create currency from Congress to a private bank (which is what the Federal Reserve is).
It is a pipedream to think Obama would follow in the steps of Andrew Jackson on this, but to get this thread back on Obama, it is something he should do if he was serious about change. It would be taking a giant leap towords putting America back on the path to undisputed global prominence and independence.
You have yet to ever provide any semblence of a solid argument on anything non-music related; however, you do seem to enjoy flexing your small catalogue of insults, and this dialogue is no exception.
Do some actual research on the history of the Federal Reserve and the fractional reserve banking method, and on the effects of the Federal Reserve on the value of American currency buying power since 1913, and then come back and put forward a coherent arguement as to why our current system is not flawed towards the perpetuation of debt.
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I found this to be a strong documentary on our current financial situation. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/featured/about-the-film/1/ You can watch it there. Harvard professors tend to be credible.
Rather than blame the structure, it takes that as a given and looks at particular policy decisions that led us to where we are.
Rather than blame the structure, it takes that as a given and looks at particular policy decisions that led us to where we are.
Dak
mentat
Well obviously greed based policies, especially in so called "securities", debt sold as assets, etc. has contributed to the sudden collapse. The problem is regardless of whether everyone played nice or not, the money itself is borrowed at its source. The United States is in debt to the Federal Reserve for all the Federal Notes in the system, PLUS the interest on the money. If the United States made it's own currency, we wouldn't owe a large chunk of our national debt.
Our deficit spending (extra loans) have merely accelarated a problem that would have confronted us at some point regardless.
When addressing problems, to accept the foundational system as a given is an error.
Our deficit spending (extra loans) have merely accelarated a problem that would have confronted us at some point regardless.
When addressing problems, to accept the foundational system as a given is an error.
MasterOLightning
Optimator
I hope you're suggesting we go as far as ending fractional reserve banking.
It's not like nations without a Fed-like system are immune to a depression.
It's not like nations without a Fed-like system are immune to a depression.
Dak
mentat
We would be stronger for the long haul without fractional reserve banking (Edit: IMHO). But that in itself is a seperate issue from the existance and practices of Federal Reserve itself.
sadistik necrofiend
Furby goes nanners
I'm glad it is seen clearly at least by some people. You were right on when you mentioned that people really just don't care to know about this shit. Thats the problem with this cuntry sometimes, is that as a people we have become so watered down and indoctrinated from shitty education, greed, religion, and TV etc. as well as a reliance on Hollywood and POP culture, that if it came down to making a difference, who or what would be willing to do so. People are in this like Obama trance right now.
Maybe that is what we'll have next.....An Obama zombie holocaust where people are gonna be like OBAAAAAMMMMMAAAAA!! What the fuck is next? Seriously!
People need to wake up, take a step back, and look at the bigger picture such as the globalism, the federal reserve, the multinational corporations, which still play a very big part in the manipulation scheme in this country for obvious reasons. Elitism, Greed, Capitalism, and control of the mainstream information. There is hardly anything that is NON corporate owned these days thus being able to maintain itself from giving into the vampyric mechanism of it all.
Thankfully I am not quite that pessimistic and some people do seem to be waking up a little on the importance of this. Maybe some people should read up on the situation in Iceland right now in sources other than the mainstream. The people have of Iceland have spoken out upon made clear that are sick of they're country being ran by globalist and elitist fuckheads.
Dak
mentat
Dak
mentat
Obama backs Unions
Bad. Employers should not be at the mercy of their workforce to the extent that attempt to keep them over the barrel. In theory unions aren't necessarily a bad idea, but in practise they are the muscle for the lazy and usually morally bankrupt. (Personal anecdote, my father worked in Michigan for a short time back in the late 70s during summers and refused to participate in the applicable union and was threatened physically to the point he had to find other employment.) This is not uncommon from the surface research I have done.
Bad. Employers should not be at the mercy of their workforce to the extent that attempt to keep them over the barrel. In theory unions aren't necessarily a bad idea, but in practise they are the muscle for the lazy and usually morally bankrupt. (Personal anecdote, my father worked in Michigan for a short time back in the late 70s during summers and refused to participate in the applicable union and was threatened physically to the point he had to find other employment.) This is not uncommon from the surface research I have done.
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
The Fed operates using a fractional reserve banking system. To end fractional reserve banking would be to end the Fed essentially.
Blind Guardian
Member
What are you talking about? Unions are the voice of the workers, i can't tell you how many times i would've been fucked over by employers if it weren't for the union. It has nothing to do with being lazy or morally bankrupt, unions are there to let you know your rights and are supposed to help you not taking shit when you feel you're unjustly treated by your employer.
V.V.V.V.V.
Houses Ov Mercury
Blind Guardian
Member
Dak
mentat
If you don't like how employers treat you, we have the option in this country of finding different employer or self-employment. Trying to force the employer to give you what you want is wrong, and I make no apologies for that opinion.
And what about when you take shit from a union? Then who has your back?
Unions are the end result of a weak/lazy-follower mentality, as opposed to a entrepeneuring and independent mentality. Employers should be in the position to offer the terms they want, they took the risk in starting a business. You took no risks as the employee. Unions get an existing employee "rights" he quite frankly shouldn't have.
@ Ozzman:
You can have a system of banking (fraction reserve method) without the source of a nations own currency (Dollars) being to borrow it from a private bank (Federal Reserve). Two totally different things.
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
Yeah, I just realized that. I actually read the majority of Modern Money Mechanics the other day so I shouldn't have made that error
Dak
mentat
You can't compare employment to nationality, especially since starting your own business is not even close to the same difficulty as starting your own country.
If an employer worked his employees 24hrs a day, you can go work for the guy working you less hours. Or you can start your own business, either way, the employer is forced to change how he runs his business or hire people who will do the work he asks.
In the latter scenario, which does happen, employers hire what unions refer to as "scabs"(also what they label current employees who don't participate in strikes) and usually those workers face anything from verbal harrassment to physical assault for working for the employer.
I am not saying that employers can't be unethical, but unions are the wrong way to go about challanging it, and unions tend to go far beyond just challanging bad ethics and in modern america usually have the employers by the balls, which is ethically wrong.
If an employer worked his employees 24hrs a day, you can go work for the guy working you less hours. Or you can start your own business, either way, the employer is forced to change how he runs his business or hire people who will do the work he asks.
In the latter scenario, which does happen, employers hire what unions refer to as "scabs"(also what they label current employees who don't participate in strikes) and usually those workers face anything from verbal harrassment to physical assault for working for the employer.
I am not saying that employers can't be unethical, but unions are the wrong way to go about challanging it, and unions tend to go far beyond just challanging bad ethics and in modern america usually have the employers by the balls, which is ethically wrong.
MasterOLightning
Optimator
Wow, you make it sound like starting your own business or finding another job is the easiest thing to do. In tough economic times, it's pretty crazy to quit a job. And 90% of people do not have the capital to start a business. If you were to do away with fractional reserve banking, then no one could obtain a loan to start a business.
Unions look rather bad now, especially in the auto industry. But without any, workers would be terribly exploited. There are more workers than there are jobs. This is the leverage that employers have. It's why the government institutes minimum wage laws and other laws to protect workers. The way unions operate could be better, but there must be unions or similar organizations to protect workers.
Unions look rather bad now, especially in the auto industry. But without any, workers would be terribly exploited. There are more workers than there are jobs. This is the leverage that employers have. It's why the government institutes minimum wage laws and other laws to protect workers. The way unions operate could be better, but there must be unions or similar organizations to protect workers.
Can be a little tough to find alternative employment when you live in, say, a mining town. Someone who works in a factory probably has no marketable skills and can only do manual labor, so any jobs are going to be low-paying and shitty. No employer will choose to treat them well when that costs money. You have to force employers to pay a decent wage and shit. Do you also think the minimum wage law is a bad thing?
Matt
Active Member
Dakryn has a job with nearly a 100% security rate. Most military people think the same way he does.
Dak
mentat
OF COURSE IT'S NOT EASY. That's the fucking point. It wasn't/isn't "easy" for any business owner to start and run his own business. If you don't like how he does it, you can try to go and do it better, or find someone who does.The spoonfed,lazy,entitlement mentality demonstrated in the first line is one of the many reasons America is slipping.
Whole different arguement for another time.
There are "evils" out there, but Unions as they stand now are not the answer. Since the government already mandates minimum wage, and basic work safety/sanitary rules, why do you need a union? In general it is to get workers what they think they deserve, which imo often doesn't line up with reality.
Mathiäs;8009199 said:
Congratulations on adding nothing. Coincidently I get out of the military this year, and I am getting out even in this economy while most of the people I know are trying to re-enlist because they are too lazy/scared to go find a job they might have to actually try at. My anti-union stance existed prior to joining the military. Also, contrary to what you would have UM believe, most of the military people I know are PRO union, and I would imagine I have a slightly better exposure than you do.
Also it sounds like you are mainly around officers, which do have a different mindset than the majority of the military (enlisted). Officers are usually more of the go-getter types, and should be generally anti-union.
Answered above. We already have government regulations for basic workers rights. The union takes it way beyond that.
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