The thread where you talk about non-metal music you like.

H.P. Lovecraft said:
You say popularity doesn't really mean anything, then proceed to try and justify Lindemann's work as higher quality by citing review scores for his book. By the way, Goodreads reviews aren't something I'd rely on for a seal of approval. The first Twilight book has an average of 3.5/5. And I do agree, Till has an exceptional talent for playing with double entendre, but that seems to be his only truly great strength as a songwriter. But, it seems the majority of your argument against Dylan is that you personally just can't get into it. Say, for the sake of argument, I just couldn't get into Zappa. Say I found him inaccessible and felt like I'd heard it all before because of all the experimental rock I'd been exposed to previously. Does that diminish the brilliance of Zappa's work? No, it simply means I couldn't get into it due to my own listening predilections.
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Dude, tbh, I feel like your hard on for Dylan is preventing you from taking my comments for what they are or you skipped over them. I am not "against" Dylan, I wrote in my previous comments that he's good, "quality", etc., but not the "God-like" poet he's made out to be and I don't feel bad for not being impressed, because Dylan worship is incredibly exaggerated.

I agree that goodreads isn't an absolute measuring stick and I was aware of my previous argument when I wrote that sentence, but the point was that it's people who've read a book or two and the rating of Till's book is as high as it gets. 3.5 is pretty weak, not many books get over 4.5, which kinda implies it's not of as low quality as you would like to convince me it is. Even with Bieber, who's worthless to me, somebody did a great job producing that music and creating a teen idol. I hate it, but I realize something did a good job creating a product. The difference is, I can acknowledge that something I don't like has some kind of quality, even if this kind of quality doesn't speak to me. The fact that Dylan doesn't speak to me and is overrated in my opinion doesn't mean he's shit. That's the impression I got from your comments and coincidentally, you chose somebody who I'm absolutely not impressed with and even though I've heard his songs and read his lyrics (heck, my mom's a published writer & poet where I live, who's lyrics got adapted by pop artists and ranked pretty well in charts and while it doesn't make me a poet or writer as well, it's not like I'm completely ignorant about poetry), I'm just not impressed, because it's cliche to me.

About your other comment. I see you have a personal history with his music, good for you. Glad for you it helped you with your songwriting. Just as me loving Lindemann, because it is a combination of all I believe about art. Minimalism, love of the language and its creative use (hard to appreciate for non-German speaking fok), not writing about themes beaten to death, decadence, the capability of making the common man both love your work and feel surprised and disgusted, with the exception of some recent songs aimed at the American market (I assume, since they're written in English) - not being vulgar, etc.

It's just a totally different kind of writing and for the sake of not dragging this out, I'll just repeat it once more. Dylan's writing is good, I'm just not impressed. Using main stream influence, regardless of artist, doesn't prove their God-like status. It's inspired a lot more mainstream, which is written to be easy to digest, easy to identify with and possibly make you feel cool/smart/whatever. And that's fine - who am I to judge that (I mean, I might dislike it and don't think highly of it, but people are happy, so what the hell... except Babymetal of course :D )? But for me personally, that's like the lowest kind of art. I do believe that you need a bit of that in every song, which is again something why I adore Lindemann. Creating songs that have that simple pop element, few words, yet hide more. I love it. Not everybody does, I get that. Which is also why I'm not impressed with Dylan - the guy will yack on about whatever he wants to say forever, making it so transparent what he's trying to say, it bores me. It's like Lindemann writes 4 lines about a theme and Dylan would stretch that into 3 songs (exaggerating now, obviously). It's just not my kind of thing and there's little enjoyment in that for me.

Anyway, I'd say, you don't like Lindemann, I'm not impressed with Dylan. I'm fine with that, I'm sorry for offending you since I see now that he's kind of a hero to you, I mean if it offended you.
 
NeonMetalDude said:
the guy will yack on about whatever he wants to say forever, making it so transparent what he's trying to say, it bores me.
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he's far from minimalist in his approach to lyrics for sure, but he's also farrrrrr from transparent during his most acclaimed period, if anything he's consciously (some might say pretentiously) opaque and paradoxical which is why the world has always found him so fascinating. your summary of his supposed themes is unsatisfactory to say the least (and needless to say, the burden of proof would be on you as you're going up against half a century of wide-ranging critical analysis that extends a million miles beyond what you said). i can't speak for the other guy and i don't give a shit that dylan isn't your thing, but it doesn't serve your arguments about his overratedness very well if you keep characterising him so simplistically and flippantly.
 
no country for old wainds said:
he's far from minimalist in his approach to lyrics for sure, but he's also farrrrrr from transparent during his most acclaimed period, if anything he's consciously (some might say pretentiously) opaque and paradoxical which is why the world has always found him so fascinating. your summary of his supposed themes is unsatisfactory to say the least (and needless to say, the burden of proof would be on you as you're going up against half a century of wide-ranging critical analysis that extends a million miles beyond what you said). i can't speak for the other guy and i don't give a shit that dylan isn't your thing, but it doesn't serve your arguments about his overratedness very well if you keep characterising him so simplistically and flippantly.
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In that very comment I made it clear that I'm well aware that my characteristic of his song lyrics wasn't even close to objective. I was more expressing my personal feelings than writing a piece on what themes Dylan touched on.
 
H.P., I did read through your comment, first of all sorry, I misread the part about your songwriting. Either way, I think what it comes to is that we both expressed, you as likely a native English speaker (or just a better English speaker) in a much prettier manner, that we enjoy different things about song-lyrics and look for different things in art. What to you seems of great value in a song or in art in general, doesn't seem that way to me and vice-versa. I guess "different strokes for different folks", essentially. Just as you feel that a simple listen to a Dylan song isn't enough to "get it" in many cases and to understand all the that's hidden under the surface, that's the same way I feel about Lindemann. One needs to "get it". But the "getting it" is individual and optional, one doesn't always "click" with the writer and who's the say there's something to "click" with? Highly subjective stuff I guess. I'm a man who prefers to be hit with 2 words instead of 200. Gut me with a sentence, not a book. But do it delicately as well, I like to be entertained.
....... EDIT ........
For me personally, Lindemann does this and I haven't seen it be done better so far. The balance between the elements like the play on words, the language, the themes, the build-up, minimalist structure... I love decadent themes, but for God's sake, do it elegantly, add in a pinch of innocence. That's what creates the tension. Beautiful words to describe hideous acts.
....... / EDIT ........

I respect Dylan is his pioneering and his success and the apparent quality in what he's been doing. The thing is, for me personally, respect doesn't equal enjoyment and I guess we're not too different on this topic. I will never listen to somebody I respect (past a point where I'm interested to learn about them and what they have to say), but won't stop listening to people whose art I enjoy.

I don't feel like I can add much more to the discussion at this point as I've said all that I can say and I don't think either of us are going to change our minds soon, so I'd say let's unite in finding Babymetal a fucking disgusting disgrace?

Also, thanks for taking the time for the discussion so far :) .
 
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