UM Hall of Fame April '16 Edition

[CiG]

I'd say you're definitely reaching there.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

I am. I told you I wouldn't find much.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

It's gonna be horseshit if the big ones like Ozzy, Death, Megadeth, and Venom don't get in.

Venom aren't deserving at all.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

i'm more dubious about venom 'inventing black metal', myself, but god i don't really want to argue about that for a 100th time. i'll go halfway and say they were obviously crucial in inspiring it.

Claiming Venom invented black metal the genre is so illegitimate that it isn't worth responding to. They came up with the phrase, but not the genre.

 

[no country for old wainds]

even the origin of the phrase is dubious. holy moses had a demo called 'black metal masters' two years earlier.

 

[CiG]

Venom aren't deserving at all.

Yes they are. Now I hope they win even more just to piss you off.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

If anything Bathory ever produced can qualify as black metal, you bet your ass Venom invented black metal.

 

[no country for old wainds]

bathory evolved way beyond his initial venom worship though so that doesn't really follow

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Yeah, Quorthon evolved into Viking metal. The Return is black metal, and by that standard any of Venom's first three or four albums easily fit into black metal.

 

[CiG]

I'm ambivalent about Venom being black metal, first wave black metal didn't have a specific sound anyway. Anybody that knows anything knows that first wave black metal is defined by atmosphere, attitude, aura and a bunch of other romanticised elements.

That said, if you're in a black metal band and you don't like Venom, your band probably sucks. Just a guess.

 

[Omni]

Venom aren't deserving at all.

I'm not sure why they wouldn't be deserving when they're clearly a massive influence on what is supposedly your favorite musical style. They're deserving even if it's just from a historical perspective.

For the record, I don't think that Venom 100% invented black metal either. They're still one of the most important bands in its history.

 

[no country for old wainds]

the whole grouping BM into waves thing is pretty unsatisfactory in general, but i think THE RETURN and UNDER THE SIGN... were much more closely approximating what black metal would later become. as ever i suppose it's a question of where you draw the line, you (hp) seem to draw the line earlier than i do with most genres (see: the motorhead thrash argument).

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

Fair enough. I just see nearly all black metal's most important elements embodied by Venom's first three albums already, specifically At War With Satan.

 

[CiG]

At War With Satan is definitely the closest they come to a black metal sound that can be defined.
Seems to me if I were to not be romantic about it and decide which album sounds like the start of a definitive black metal sound, it would be Bathory's Under The Sign Of The Black Mark.

 

[Omni]

Don't forget that people still exist who think that Judas Priest is part of the NWOBHM.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

I've seen people who claim Burzum and Darkthrone to be black metal's creators as well.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I'm not sure why they wouldn't be deserving when they're clearly a massive influence on what is supposedly your favorite musical style. They're deserving even if it's just from a historical perspective.

For the record, I don't think that Venom 100% invented black metal either. They're still one of the most important bands in its history.

They're a footnote in the history of black metal. An honorable mention, no doubt, but their music is barely above average.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

If anything Bathory ever produced can qualify as black metal, you bet your ass Venom invented black metal.

If you can't hear the distinction between Venom and Under the Sign of a Black Mark, then there's really no point in even participating in the conversation.

 

[H.P. Lovecraft]

I'm speaking about the eponymous debut and The Return specifically. Which are black metal albums. And thus, so is at least At War With Satan if you're making a candid sonic comparison.

 

[Omni]

@crimsonfloyd

I wonder what black metal you like if you think they weren't one of the most influential bands on the development of the genre and still continue to inspire new bands.

Metallica, Slayer and Exodus also listed them as significant influences. It's pretty obvious that thrash metal owes them a bit of credit as well.

They're definitely more important to the development of extreme metal than Emperor or whatever you like.