Faggoth?

[no country for old wainds]

I wonder. If they were well-versed and knowledgeable about the subject, and flawlessly pulled it off without revealing their true beliefs, a musical "prank" you might call it, how would anyone else be the wiser?

Sure, they could copy Graveland. Make a very very similar album. But could they write something innovative, capturing the Pagan spirit, taking the listener on an epic musical voyage into the times of Pagan values? No, because ideology is inherent in music, and they don't hold that ideology. It would be superficial and self-deprecating of the people in question. If they really did manage to pull off a great album, then they're surely closet Pagans, not Muslims. Music IS the ideology, put into sound. The ideology is the driving force behind the music.

For most bands, the ideology is simply to 'sound good', or in the worst of cases, to make money. Personally, I prefer something a little more intelligent and complex. It's not difficult to make music that's just good on a basic aesthetic level. I enjoy interpreting the meanings behind the sound, feeling the ideology flow in musical form.

Ever wondered why certain sounds inspire the same reactions within every person? If you played some black metal to a random person who didn't know what it was, they'd say 'fuck, that shit sounds evil'. The same applies, on a much more advanced level, to all of the best music. Sound with a complex, serious purpose, direction, an ideology.

Another problem - people who listen to music just as entertainment are not good for music, they encourage populism and stagnation, not innovation and real quality. Every interesting, innovative release in black metal that I've heard has been written by people who are serious about their ideologies. They want the music to progress as an artform, not to just please the ear of some halfwits who only listen for fun.

Black and death metal are pretty much the last genre that uses narrative rather than circular structures. Heroism, romanticism, such things that haven't been explored in music since the great classical composers of old, are shining through again in the best extreme metal. But if people keep listening to music as entertainment, not taking it seriously, we'll soon all be doomed to listen to easy verse/chorus shite for all eternity. Those who value art will strive to prevent this.

Of course I'm not saying that I listen to music BECAUSE of the ideology. But I do find that the best music is always driven by an ideology that expresses many of my own views, and captures the spirit, atmosphere and emotions of a world that is flourishing, rather than sinking into destruction like the current one.

 

[LordFireworm]

If you played some black metal to a random person who didn't know what it was, they'd say 'fuck, that shit sounds evil'.

Actually, if you showed it to the general population, I'm quite sure the majority of people would say it was:
a)Not music
b)Shit

Unless we're talking about something less frantic and painful to the ear like The Wanderer by Emperor or At the Fathomless Depths by Dissection

Every interesting, innovative release in black metal that I've heard has been written by people who are serious about their ideologies. They want the music to progress as an artform, not to just please the ear of some halfwits who only listen for fun.

I'm surprised you've said this given the most inherent and well known "quality" of black metal ideals is that the music shouldn't progress. Obviously I'm not saying every band sticks to such a standard but alot of them sure do...

For the record, I enjoy alot of Black metal bands or...Uh, faggoth bands like Emperor, Graveworm, Immortal (not faggoth, I know) and many others.
I do not however take a blind bit of notice to the lyrics. Not because they offend me or anything silly like that, but because I'm too much of a cynical asshole to think that men in cloaks and make up have anything worth telling me.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I do not however take a blind bit of notice to the lyrics. Not because they offend me or anything silly like that, but because I'm too much of a cynical asshole to think that men in cloaks and make up have anything worth telling me.

Sure, they could copy Graveland. Make a very very similar album. But could they write something innovative, capturing the Pagan spirit, taking the listener on an epic musical voyage into the times of Pagan values? No, because ideology is inherent in music, and they don't hold that ideology. It would be superficial and self-deprecating of the people in question. If they really did manage to pull off a great album, then they're surely closet Pagans, not Muslims. Music IS the ideology, put into sound. The ideology is the driving force behind the music.

For most bands, the ideology is simply to 'sound good', or in the worst of cases, to make money. Personally, I prefer something a little more intelligent and complex. It's not difficult to make music that's just good on a basic aesthetic level. I enjoy interpreting the meanings behind the sound, feeling the ideology flow in musical form.

Ever wondered why certain sounds inspire the same reactions within every person? If you played some black metal to a random person who didn't know what it was, they'd say 'fuck, that shit sounds evil'. The same applies, on a much more advanced level, to all of the best music. Sound with a complex, serious purpose, direction, an ideology.

Another problem - people who listen to music just as entertainment are not good for music, they encourage populism and stagnation, not innovation and real quality. Every interesting, innovative release in black metal that I've heard has been written by people who are serious about their ideologies. They want the music to progress as an artform, not to just please the ear of some halfwits who only listen for fun.

Black and death metal are pretty much the last genre that uses narrative rather than circular structures. Heroism, romanticism, such things that haven't been explored in music since the great classical composers of old, are shining through again in the best extreme metal. But if people keep listening to music as entertainment, not taking it seriously, we'll soon all be doomed to listen to easy verse/chorus shite for all eternity. Those who value art will strive to prevent this.

Of course I'm not saying that I listen to music BECAUSE of the ideology. But I do find that the best music is always driven by an ideology that expresses many of my own views, and captures the spirit, atmosphere and emotions of a world that is flourishing, rather than sinking into destruction like the current one.

Poignant, well-reasoned, and incredibly civil posts such as that one are why I never call you an elitist, GoD.

What you say is true. However, keep in mind that I said that not all music is for entertainment, only some. Such has always been the case for all forms of art. Some are meant to please at face value, others at the cerebral level, others on a "spiritual" level, and some don't please at all--they make you wretch and claw away at yourself because of how disturbing or thought-provoking they are.

I don't think ideology comes into play here. It just doesn't apply to art. Call it anything else: spirit, atmosphere, emotions, or whatever. And in the end, it still doesn't dictate the sound or quality of the music. It can, I suppose, be used to augment or enhance a musical experience if the listener agrees with a particular viewpoint expressed in the music. In the end, it is irrelevant. I'm a Muslim, and I don't find anything objectionable about listening to Graveland. Even the distinctly anti-Christian attitude portrayed by, I don't know, Vehemence, doesn't keep me away. And I listen to music for a all the reasons you do, entertainment included.

So if ideology or its artisitc equivalent is prevalent in music, so be it. It cannot dictate the boundaries of a style. It's why Christian metal doesn't exist. A Christian band can exist, and they can play metal. But there is no "Christian style." It cannot exist.

I hope you can see where I'm coming from. I'm not as misinformed as many would like to believe. This isn't an argument of right and wrong. It's a matter of understanding differing points of view and making changes based upon that.

It would have been better if the guys were a bit dumber looking.

I didn't realize it was possible for them to be.

 

[Thanatopsis123]

Some people seem to be confusing ideology with emotion.

Here you go. www.m-w.com

 

[Ginja_Ninja]

there's nothing artistic about blakk metal, they're just a bunch of faggots on a lower level

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Emotion drives music, not ideology.

No confusion.

 

[Dick Sirloin]

u r stupid, nick

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Troll accounts irk me.

 

[Varulv]

Emotion drives music, not ideology.

No confusion.

Depends on the genre. NSBM (among others) is driven mainly by ideology.

 

[HardSide]

lol, calling cradle of filth a black metal band is kinda funny, however, a local radio station was playing H.I.M. today (which shocked me), and they called them a "death metal band from norway". I nearly pissed myself. I think thats funnier, hehe. First of all His Infernal Majesty is NOT death metal, they are like goth metal. Secondly they are from Finland, not Norway.

I actually like H.I.M, I cant listen to them all the time, but once in a while ill put them on, just a change of pace.

h.i.m does not stand for "his infernal magesty" the lead singer has stated this over and over. there are 2 bands called "h.i.m" and one called "him"

 

[MightyA]

They were called His Infernal Majesty before they changed it to HIM. His Infernal Majesty was a norsecore band.

 

[Slayed Necros]

Oh look, another fucking pitiful debate on black metal. Both Erik's and GoD's posts summed it up perfectly. End.

 

[Ginja_Ninja]

norsecore = gaycore

black metal is all about contradictions, a fine example would be varg

 

[anonymousnick2001]

Depends on the genre. NSBM (among others) is driven mainly by ideology.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Any black metal group driven mainly by ideology is National Socialist Black Metal, a special breed of black metal with pro-socialist(or whatever--I'm unfamiliar) lyrics.

All other bands are just regular old black metal. When the ideology is a major force in the band, a clarifier is applied to indicate such. NSBM is not a sound per se, but a subgenre.

There.

 

[Varulv]

I'm not sure if I read that second sentence right, but I'll say it anyway; National Socialism is quite different than Socialism and to imply that they're the same thing (or even similar) is insulting to the "creators" of the seperate ideologies, heh... Okay, I'm done.

 

[Chopstick up the Peehole]

I think you're all quite gay.

 

[no country for old wainds]

NSBM is almost always folky, once again proving my point.

 

[anonymousnick2001]

I'm not sure if I read that second sentence right, but I'll say it anyway; National Socialism is quite different than Socialism and to imply that they're the same thing (or even similar) is insulting to the "creators" of the seperate ideologies, heh...

I'm not afraid to admit that I don't know the difference.

NSBM is almost always folky, once again proving my point.

Okay, let's see...

Do you believe it's a blanket statement, though? EVERY black metal band HAS to have the ideology?

I'm sure that there's at least one NSBM band that isn't folksy and sounds like the usual Immortal/Emperor/Mayhem band.

I'm just saying that the definition of black metal cannot be limited to such strict criteria. When Dimmu Borgir begin using full-on death growls or lose the keyboards and corpse paint, or when they begin doing drop-D three chord angst songs, or something to that effect, then you know it's not black metal.

I just want to know if the genre can expand at all. I'm not saying that ideology drives music(yet).

 

[Ginja_Ninja]

I'm not sure if I read that second sentence right, but I'll say it anyway; National Socialism is quite different than Socialism and to imply that they're the same thing (or even similar) is insulting to the "creators" of the seperate ideologies, heh... Okay, I'm done.

both like totaly control/monopoly from a few, if u're country right now has an NS/commie establishment in control, you wouldn't even be in this forum in the first place cos' u won't even have a computer, stereo, tv to start off with!

go get a job or something, going back to school always helps

 

[Varulv]

Well, communism like the way Marx described is has never really existed, where as true National Socialism has. Both are at opposite ends of the political spectrum and basically the only thing they have in common is the population is controlled by a select few.

Uh, that statement about not being able to have a TV or stereo was completely off too. It'd probably be that way in a communist country because that political system is more restricting, but... There was TV in Nazi Germany and I'm pretty sure if a leader like Hitler existed right now, there'd still be TV, stereo's, and the internet. Eventhough it'd most likely contain pro - NS government propaganda, I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot more interesting than the shit that's on now.

You should really learn more about the political ideologies before you try to give an uninformed opinion. Working your English skills might help you sound a little smarter, too.