Iconoclast: News/Info Thread

[Krowsnest]

And I am appalled by what the person up top said about Ayreon

Someone talked crap about Ayreon? WHERE WAS I IN DEFENSE???

You'd need a minimum of 3 discs...

Yea, Damnation Game, Divine Wings and Twilight, and not a single song of the self-titled


and as a late and simple-minded response, PL is a great record, under appreciated. its close enough to still feel like an SX record, while different enough to make you want to listen when it comes up on shuffle.

 

[Marwen]

For me, PL songs had a pretty short lifespan compared to their other material. The best track in PL must be Oculus: hands down the best prelude track ever made by a metal band. Other than that, it just has less of that long lasting SymX soul and artistry, and more short-lived angry riff-driven power metal, and I'm not just talking about the music but also the theme, imagery, and lyrical content. It is no wonder that it sold more than anything SymX ever made and expanded the band's fan base. It's a good thing for the band for sure, but not necessarily for the music. It's only natural because apparently that's the kind of "metal" material that sells these days. For a guy like me who wants some real meaningful non-stereotypical music, it is not a direction I look forward to.

Nobody said it's a shit album (of course it's not, it's still symphony x and it kicks ass in various ways), and as somebody already said, I doubt if anyone really "hates" it or is going to "hate" the new album. Also for those who still refuse to notice: Iconoclast is going in the same direction as PL, and some fans want to discuss this. So quit being such a "no discussion before album release" nazi.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Anyway, my question to you all is why is the verse/chorus/bridge format expected in every single song on the planet? I bought a few albums from obscure prog metal bands a few months ago and EVERY.SINGLE.SONG. is in the EXACT same tempo, time signature, and everything is intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solos/bridge/chorus. I know this is the mandatory format for radio, but WHY? How the hell do so many people not get bored from the same exact format and time signature? When will we ever hear a top hit with a strange time signature and absolutely no song structure? When I hear a song with the verse/chorus format, I just want to go insane!

I have no idea, but yes, it is annoying to hear this in every single song. As far as the radio is concerned, this is what people are accustomed to, and changing it around probably won't happen anytime soon. But in progressive rock/metal I honestly feel it should be used sparingly. Symphony X has used this formula in most of their songs since day one; it's not just Paradise Lost. However, this album clearly has the most of it.

So what keeps Symphony X's songs interesting if they follow the same formula that 99.9% of rock/metal artists follow? For me, it's almost constant key changes and time signature changes. Most Symphony X songs feature verses or choruses that are identical to each other in almost every way except key signature (and lyrics, obviously). A great example is Accolade II, in which the first two verses are in different keys and the third chorus is in a different key than the first two. Many listeners wouldn't even notice such things (I didn't the first time, either), but when a song fails to switch keys and stays in the same key throughout (especially long songs), I grow very bored.

Time signature changes are the other big one. If a song doesn't switch these enough my attention is lost. The problem lies in the fact that a lot of the time, these changes sound forced. For me, Symphony X's time changes have never sounded forced; even if a section has tons of odd meters, it still grooves and flows beautifully into the next. Most other progressive bands can't seem to figure this problem out, and thus sound overly mechanical and almost devoid of emotion.

As for Paradise Lost, key changes and time signature changes were cut down a bit when compared to previous albums. However, someone who is not a die-hard Symphony X fan (or who may not even listen to progressive music) is still going to notice oddities about the music such as these. What I'm saying is that while Paradise Lost isn't the Symphony X most of us have come to know and love, it is still excellent music compared to most of the garbage that's out there.

 

[Postulate]

Imagine in Scenes from a Memory if act 1 sounded like Metallica and act 2 sounded like ELP.

That's actually pretty close to the truth, though.

Edit: no, I was thinking Metropolis Pt. 1 ad 2. Still, though.

This whole thing sort of reminds me of Fates Warning's Parallels. I was watching that making-of documentary of it, and the producer (Terry Brown, I think?) was talking about how 'oh yeah, the final result was pretty complex, but you should have seen what they showed me first. I had to cut out a few things, you know, where the time signatures or whatever were just a bit too complex to be marketable...' I think I could feel my blood boiling. The band was on board with it, of course, but it hurts. It hurts.

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

Ayreon is pretty awful...

 

[Krowsnest]

Ayreon is pretty awful...

DON'T GET ME STARTED

Then again I think Dream Theatre is universally awful, so opinions are opinions. I never felt half the emotion or atmosphere in any DT song like I had in an Ayreon song, but that's just me.

 

[JaxStax19]

Huh?
And you make this assumption based on what? Some amateur cell phone videos with horrible sound,
shot from the crowd.

Errrr ... No I was there

And this is why I don't bother with metal forums because i just get a barrage of completely insanely dumb opinions, when all I want is a decent discussion, with sensible people.

Bye ... off to Prog Archives (lol that's just as bad XD)

 

[_Gentleman of_the Snow_]

DON'T GET ME STARTED

Then again I think Dream Theatre is universally awful, so opinions are opinions. I never felt half the emotion or atmosphere in any DT song like I had in an Ayreon song, but that's just me.

DT are pretty awful most of the time as well ... these days

 

[proulxski]

DT is pretty awful, but ayreon is pretty lack luster minus Star One which I love!

As far as the negative comments go, I posted earlier on in this thread that if you have something negative to say about the new album. Start your own thread. This is the news/info thread for Iconoclast, and it was started because of the lack of excitement, and news comming from both the band, the fans, and management/nuclear blast. I do believe as a group we did just that, which was raise excitement. Though there are few, very few negative comments. Id like to remind you all that they are not welcome here.

News/Information being the key word. Not the 'personal vendetta/bashing of something that is clearly awesome thread'. Of course we're all entitled to our opinions. But might I remind you, no where in this thread, or the reason for the thread where we asking for your negative opinions on the upcoming album. Or any opinion at all for that matter. Thank you!

Me personally, am loving the new stuff so far. And I'm sure when I get my hands on the new album, i'll love it even more!

NOTE: One last reminder to everyone who has been great, and most importantly POSITIVE! I just want to say thanks to everyone who had contributed to this thread, with photos, videos, what ever it may be. And I appreciate it, as I am sure our fellow fans do as well. Its nice to see some life around here again.

*UPDATE*
Little behind on the times but I've been busy
-Some more photos which can be viewed here http://www.flickr.com/photos/pieroprv/sets/72157626174069499/
-Official album art work for both editions of the album
-Track List for both editions of the album
-Release Date
-and of course the awesome Russell Allen interview
-I also removed the one live review, because I had only one...It was just taken up space!

 

[Weston]

DT is pretty awful, but ayreon is pretty lack luster minus Star One which I love!

As far as the negative comments go, I posted earlier on in this thread that if you have something negative to say about the new album. Start your own thread. This is the news/info thread for Iconoclast, and it was started because of the lack of excitement, and news comming from both the band, the fans, and management/nuclear blast. I do believe as a group we did just that, which was raise excitement. Though there are few, very few negative comments. Id like to remind you all that they are not welcome here.

News/Information being the key word. Not the 'personal vendetta/bashing of something that is clearly awesome thread'. Of course we're all entitled to our opinions. But might I remind you, no where in this thread, or the reason for the thread where we asking for your negative opinions on the upcoming album. Or any opinion at all for that matter. Thank you!

Me personally, am loving the new stuff so far. And I'm sure when I get my hands on the new album, i'll love it even more!

NOTE: One last reminder to everyone who has been great, and most importantly POSITIVE! I just want to say thanks to everyone who had contributed to this thread, with photos, videos, what ever it may be. And I appreciate it, as I am sure our fellow fans do as well. Its nice to see some life around here again.

*UPDATE*
Little behind on the times but I've been busy
-Some more photos which can be viewed here http://www.flickr.com/photos/pieroprv/sets/72157626174069499/
-Official album art work for both editions of the album
-Track List for both editions of the album
-Release Date
-and of course the awesome Russell Allen interview
-I also removed the one live review, because I had only one...It was just taken up space!

Sadly you do not get to choose what people write in your thread. You are not a mod nor is your job to post info about the band. Am I mistaken? And if the new album is "clearly awesome" why have a thread to promote it in the first place. I do appreciate the thread (really, thank you.), but you can't expect anyone to take what your saying seriously. We can't all like the new album, nor should we, but we are all here to try and find out if we can.

 

[Postulate]

lol ayreon sux ha ha ha

 

[Marwen]

We can't all like the new album, nor should we, but we are all here to try and find out if we can.

+1














and ayreon sucks.

 

[Postulate]

Right on! \m/

 

[Frontal Lobotomy]

I like metal just as much as I like progressive, I just don't really like to see them mix too much. I hate when the guitar riff is heavy as hell and the keyboardist gets bored and attempts to try to make a soft melody behind it and it just sounds like fail. There is a great deal of "meh" moments in some SX albums, but it's pretty consistent for the most part. I am not gonna start a rebellion in the streets over PL, but I will probably never spin it ever again in my CD player. Now V on the other hand...

I am inclined to almost completely agree, except for the fact that I do like PL, but it has nothing on V. I feel the keyboard is slowly getting fazed out more and more which is a terrible shame. Also Russel's voice is getting rougher with every album. Time to put the rum aside for a while maybe, elsewise no more ballads?;p Don't get me wrong, I still love his voice but I feel like he and they are trying to fit a certain scheme that will sell more albums by adopting a rougher line, at the expense of the softer, "don't-know-whether-to-cry-or-laugh-it's-so-good" melodies of the previous albums. In accordance with that, they are also losing their progressive style - in my opinion, gradually since the Damnation Game (which I'm sort of re-discovering now). You can notice how the albums perceptibly become more streamlined to suit a wider audience. This is great for them, the more albums they can sell, the longer they will probably be in the game. However as a huge fan of their old stuff; the stuff that made me love them in the first place, I can't help but feeling that somethig is lost... Maybe I'll discover something new in Iconoclast that will grab me as much as the old stuff I just hope they don't make any more videos with snakes. I hate snakes. I like puppies. And sunshine.

 

[Weston]

I am inclined to almost completely agree, except for the fact that I do like PL, but it has nothing on V. I feel the keyboard is slowly getting fazed out more and more which is a terrible shame. Also Russel's voice is getting rougher with every album. Time to put the rum aside for a while maybe, elsewise no more ballads?;p Don't get me wrong, I still love his voice but I feel like he and they are trying to fit a certain scheme that will sell more albums by adopting a rougher line, at the expense of the softer, "don't-know-whether-to-cry-or-laugh-it's-so-good" melodies of the previous albums. In accordance with that, they are also losing their progressive style - in my opinion, gradually since the Damnation Game (which I'm sort of re-discovering now). You can notice how the albums perceptibly become more streamlined to suit a wider audience. This is great for them, the more albums they can sell, the longer they will probably be in the game. However as a huge fan of their old stuff; the stuff that made me love them in the first place, I can't help but feeling that somethig is lost... Maybe I'll discover something new in Iconoclast that will grab me as much as the old stuff I just hope they don't make any more videos with snakes. I hate snakes. I like puppies. And sunshine.

If you feel strongly about this, that's a really good thing. The worst thing you could do is just sit back and let a band ruin themselves. I agree with what you've said and I think if we feel this way we should speak up.

 

[Prismatic Sphere]

Seconded.

 

[PurpleDink]

I 4th or whatever on Ayreon being pretty bad with the exception of Universal Migrator part 2. DT has had hit and miss songs ever since Six Degrees. And most new prog bands do have that standard verse chorus bridge solo chorus structure which i dont mind. Prog isnt the only type of music i listen to so i can accept it. But i feel even when Symphony X follows this formula they still do it their own way. It doesnt sound watered down. What i hate about most new prog bands is that they try to shove as many time signatures and instruments into one 5min+ song with no real structure or focus and terrible vocals. Being avant garde and playing beyond the norm doesnt mean your doing something creative, deep, or meanful. It just comes off as lackluster and pompous which means some formulas are established for a reason.

 

[PurpleDink]

And if the new album is "clearly awesome" why have a thread to promote it in the first place.

Why not?

And he never said it was clearly awesome. It was a hypothetical description of how not to title your topic. Learn to comprehend.

 

[Weston]

Why not?

And he never said it was clearly awesome. It was a hypothetical description of how not to title your topic. Learn to comprehend.

Now I see.

What I'd like to say is that nobody here is giving plain negative comments such as "This shit sucks man" or "Russels sounds like an idiot what a loser". Has anyone said that?

I haven't noticed any. What I have noticed is criticism, almost all which should be considered constructive and music needs that desperately.

To try to take that away from this thread and say that those kinds of comments are "unwelcome here" even though the majority of the posters agree that the bands direction is worrisome is only contributing to our stupidity and the kind of thinking that makes bands like Symphony X not popular in the US, and not on the radio in the first place.

"why not" doesn't help anyone. Things you feel strongly about must be justified.

 

[PurpleDink]

Agreed. Except our opinions dont matter. We arent paid critics and we dont write for magazines. If we did our opinions still wouldnt matter if not very little.:Smokedev: Smyphony X isnt on the radio because its metal.