The Official Movie Thread

[challenge_everything]

It just depends on what you mean by right-wing. I tend to think much of these exclamations that this or that is a "left-wing" or "right-wing wet dream" are becoming platitudes. What about The Avengers is a libertarian wet dream for example?

I mean, Hillary Clinton is about as militaristic as they come. Though I recognize that far-leftists do refer to her as right-wing anyway. It's all pretty meaningless since we define someone as left-wing or right-wing based on a few stances they take and ignore others that might contradict it.

Right wing doesn't necessarily = libertarian. Social conservatives are often big on state intervention, ie abortion, immigration control, military etc.

Leaving that aside, the whole Avengers concept is inherently right wing in nature. A secret force backed by military strength to protect the world from unspecified threats, managing to maintain their organisation despite pressure from 'soft' politicians trying to shut them down after they cause massive collateral damage (second movie I think?), fighting eco extremist Thanos etc.

 

[CiG]

I agree, I was pointing out libertarianism as a variant of "right-wing" to contrast against the sort of Bush era stereotype. Of course libertarianism can be both left or right.

Leaving that aside, the whole Avengers concept is inherently right wing in nature. A secret force backed by military strength to protect the world from unspecified threats, managing to maintain their organisation despite pressure from 'soft' politicians trying to shut them down after they cause massive collateral damage (second movie I think?), fighting eco extremist Thanos etc.

I don't really agree unless we define what "inherently right-wing" means, this is why I brought up libertarianism. Ron Paul certainly wouldn't jizz his pants over The Avengers, but Hillary would. Trotsky was all about international action, the left today accuses Trump of being Putin's puppet in part because he didn't bomb Syria enough, many on the left glorify Captain America because he #PunchedNazis etc.

I do think it's hilarious that McTierman said the people making those movies are fascists though, considering the overwhelming majority of them are social justice types.

 

[CiG]

Sukiyaki Western Django is so fucking bizarre.

 

[RadicalThrasher]

Tonight:

Spoiler

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

... man i wanna raid your movie collection!

 

[CiG]

Same haha.

 

[challenge_everything]

I don't really agree unless we define what "inherently right-wing" means, this is why I brought up libertarianism. Ron Paul certainly wouldn't jizz his pants over The Avengers, but Hillary would. Trotsky was all about international action, the left today accuses Trump of being Putin's puppet in part because he didn't bomb Syria enough, many on the left glorify Captain America because he #PunchedNazis etc.

I do think it's hilarious that McTierman said the people making those movies are fascists though, considering the overwhelming majority of them are social justice types.

I use the term right wing in the way that political scientists have used the term for about a century. Trump and Clinton are right wing.

I don't agree with McTiernan, but I think the personal politics of individual writers can and should be divorced from the final product. We're not talking about an auteur model here; the Marvel movies are products of a massive team driven by a major studio to please, by and large, a lowest common denominator audience. It's unsurprising that the end product is reactionary.

 

[CiG]

Reactionary towards what? Those themes have been going on since A-Team and G.I. Joe and have been enjoyed bipartisanly with the exception of PMRC types who pearl-clutch about violence for decades.

Not really sure I see how Clinton is right-wing, she's an internationalist unlike Trump.

 

[challenge_everything]

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm saying the Avengers are a right wing product, I'm not saying this is anything new or radical in Hollywood, or even that there's necessarily anything wrong with it. The A Team and GI Joe are of the same ilk.

Clinton is an economic conservative and free market advocate and mostly socially conservative. The fact that she's slightly to the left of Trump doesn't mean anything. American politics has historically been much further to the right than most other developed countries; most Democrat leaders for the last 40 years would slip comfortably into the conservative faction of European countries.

 

[no country for old wainds]

the political compass actually has clinton further right than trump if i recall correctly, whatever that's worth

 

[CiG]

Probably says way more about European politics than it does the definitions of right-wing or left-wing, considering Europe produced both fascism and communism which tend to be the furthest you can go to the right or left, and both ideologies are way more controversial in America than they are in Europe.

Edit: America to me is honestly more of a centrist corporatist nation. Look at the way everybody is freaking out over Trump and freaked out over Bernie? Both these people are about as ideologically milquetoast as you can get and would be moderates on their respective wings in any European context. Bernie would be a moderate if not a conservative on the continent lol.

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm saying the Avengers are a right wing product

I'll just cut to the chase and ask why you think that?

 

[challenge_everything]

Honestly I don't even know where to begin with this. It sounds like you are letting your personal political bias distort what should be a largely non-partisan analysis of where people stand on the political spectrum. Saying things like "America to me..." really just misses the point.

Your comments are American-centric. The political compass in the US doesn't dictate what's left or right wing. Those terms have a meaning in political science that goes back to the French revolution.

It couldn't be more irrelevant that Europe produced both fascism and communism. So what? There's not a fascist nor communist country in Europe these days (don't fucking say Russia, they're communist in name only). Europe also produced Rousseau and JS Mill who are more relevant to any contemporary analysis of European politics. You pick a European country with a conservative leader these days, they're hardly trying to unwind the long-entrenched welfare state regime.

Trump is a right winger who exhibits numerous traits of fascism. That's not expressing any personal view on the man, it's just fitting him with well defined political paradigms.

 

[challenge_everything]

I'll just cut to the chase and ask why you think that?

I already answered that if you bothered to read.

 

[CiG]

I already answered that if you bothered to read.

I did, that's my problem. You said this:

"A secret force backed by military strength to protect the world from unspecified threats, managing to maintain their organisation despite pressure from 'soft' politicians trying to shut them down after they cause massive collateral damage (second movie I think?), fighting eco extremist Thanos etc."

= "inherently right-wing" and so I asked you to explain why that is the case. You keep referring to your own views here as supported by political science and decades of political definitions and then get a bit buttmad because I'm questioning your statements, I understand that you think your statements are self-evidently true but just because you think that it doesn't mean they are.

You seem salty though so we can drop it if you like lol.

 

[TechnicalBarbarity]

well his username is Challenge Everythang

edti: And just to correct him, Russia hasn't been "communist in name" since the Soviet Union dissolved. CHALLENGED!

 

[dwellerINTHEdark]

Watched this just in the nick of time!

 

[challenge_everything]

well his username is Challenge Everythang

edti: And just to correct him, Russia hasn't been "communist in name" since the Soviet Union dissolved. CHALLENGED!

I was foreshadowing a comeback - most people think Russia is still communist - but you're mostly right it was actually a few years after the fall of the USSR that the constitution was changed removing references to state ideology

 

[challenge_everything]

= "inherently right-wing" and so I asked you to explain why that is the case. You keep referring to your own views here as supported by political science and decades of political definitions and then get a bit buttmad because I'm questioning your statements, I understand that you think your statements are self-evidently true but just because you think that it doesn't mean they are.

You seem salty though so we can drop it if you like lol.

• the Avengers/SHIELD as the surrogate of the CIA/military
• strong defense force being a typical attribute of social conservatives
• portrayal of those who would threaten to break up those structures as being unpatriotic and/or corrupt and/or exposing the citizens to the mercy of external threats
• central villain being a caricature of a hardline eco terrorist
• Hydra as the surrogate of the communist threat
• central heroes being war veterans and entrepreneurs
• Captain America as the nationalist figurehead

 

[CiG]

Hydra are neo-fascists with many members of Nazi German and imperialist Japanese origins. Where are you getting that it's a surrogate of the communist threat other than from your own political bias and interpretations?

I mean, sure Captain America is a nationalist figurehead in so much as he is supposed to represent an idealized America but since his inception as a character and also in the first of the MCU Captain America films he takes down fascists and other ultra nationalists. He's not going around attacking oil rich foreign states lmao.

By such standards the only state that could be called left-wing would be a disarmed anarchist commune with no borders and no military apparatus.

I guess literally zero of the communist states that have existed and do still exist have been left-wing.

portrayal of those who would threaten to break up those structures as being unpatriotic and/or corrupt and/or exposing the citizens to the mercy of external threats

No left-wing government has ever put "traitors" on trial or punishes social and political dissidents. That's strictly an inherently right-wing trait because muh political science?

central villain being a caricature of a hardline eco terrorist

Lets just agree to disagree, you're taking personal interpretations to make your points way further than I ever did.

I think what is happening a lot lately is that masculine fantasies are being conflated with a right-wing fantasy, because for some reason masculinity itself is perceived as right-wing these days.

 

[Einherjar86]

The politics of comics have a fascinating and turbulent history. I don't think we can really attribute any consistent political perspective to them. The Marvel franchise films are largely nationalistic in a way that conforms with mainstream republican and democratic ideals, although I would agree that those who lean left tend to be more critical of them. Personally, Nolan's Dark Knight films are even more ideologically confusing than the Avengers films, although also more interesting for that very reason.

But the films are different beasts than the comics, which were often significantly more complex in their representation of political disagreement and conflict (at least once you get into 1980s/90s--the original comics from the WWII era were virtually propaganda).