Do you consider Slipknot to be Metal?

[Cythraul]

Sadly, the decision will be made for us whether we like it or not - much like these descriptions...

Merriam/Webster:Cambridgeictionary.com

What is your point with this? Those definitions are so incredibly vague that they don't even uniquely pick out a particular genre of music at all. All of those definitions could apply just as well to punk and hardcore, aside from the last part about outlandish costumes or whatever. I mean, you couldn't get much more vague than 'this music has a strong beat'. Do you really expect a lexicographer to be schooled in the subtleties of the metal genre?

 

[Base Delta Zero]

What is your point with this? Those definitions are so incredibly vague that they don't even uniquely pick out a particular genre of music at all. All of those definitions could apply just as well to punk and hardcore, aside from the last part about outlandish costumes or whatever. I mean, you couldn't get much more vague than 'this music has a strong beat'. Do you really expect a lexicographer to be schooled in the subtleties of the metal genre?

No. I agree with your assessment. It's taken almost 40 years to come up with these piss-poor descriptions of an entire musical genre.
My point is that 40 years from now, Slipknot will be considered a heavy metal band by those not schooled in the subtleties of the the metal genre (Rolling Stone and VH1, for instance). That will be fact, regardless of our little opinion-discussion here...which kind of sucks...but it is what it is.

 

[hibernal_dream]

Slipknot is not metal.

I've just listened to Duality. It's too upbeat, to be considered metal it would need to use rhythmic devices which are definite increments of the drum beat. This means the stress must fall on the even beat or avoids emphasis on off-beats. What makes it metal and 'heavy' is this solid, forceful and defined quality of the tones, if you listen carefully stress falls invariably on the drum beat or half or quarter-beat. Metal is extremely downbeat. This is the one quality which is common throughout heavy, power, death and black subgenres of metal. The guitars, drums and vocals in Slipknot - ALL are heavily and stylistically syncopated and the guitars possess a driving rather than "metallic" quality to them. It is a fine line, but I think Slipknot fall just below what is necessary to be metal. Anyone that thinks they qualify has a very liberal, and probably wrong, definition of metal.

 

[Sabin Frost]

Slipknot is not metal.

I've just listened to Duality. It's too upbeat, to be considered metal it would need to use rhythmic devices which are definite increments of the drum beat. This means the stress must fall on the even beat or avoids emphasis on off-beats. What makes it metal and 'heavy' is this solid, forceful and defined quality of the tones, if you listen carefully stress falls invariably on the drum beat or half or quarter-beat. Metal is extremely downbeat. This is the one quality which is common throughout heavy, power, death and black subgenres of metal. The guitars, drums and vocals in Slipknot - ALL are heavily and stylistically syncopated and the guitars possess a driving rather than "metallic" quality to them. It is a fine line, but I think Slipknot fall just below what is necessary to be metal. Anyone that thinks they qualify has a very liberal, and probably wrong, definition of metal.

You cant classify metal that rigidly as you will find a lot of what is generally considered metal can be much more upbeat. You are also singling out one song. Slipknot use the drums as the lead instrument, they basically have rhythm drums and lead drums, the guitars take the role which the drums do in normal music, this is why it is alternative and not stock standard. However the guitars are riff orientated, possess effects pedals, distortion, down-tuning and many other things considered metal. Heavy metal is generally considered to have a thick, heavy, guitar and drum orientated sound wihch is highly amplified, often with a lot of distortion, Slipknot possess all of those qualities.

If you were not to call Slipknot metal you would atleast need to throw them into the category of rock and essentially metal is a type of rock music when it goes down to the absolute basics of categorisation. However to make a direct comparison to rock music, "The drum setup is generally much larger than with other forms of rock music." There is no rock band with a kit or drum set up anywhere near what Slipknot utilize.

To quote wikipedia, "Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these tropes."

If you go onto further read, all of the components listed as vital are present in Slipknot like the above. Slipknot use solos, on their earlier albums these solos were done with turntables and drums fitting into their more experimental approach and the wish of their producer, on volume three they use shred guitar. Slipknot are also very loud live, a crucial element.

You mentioned the vocals are driving, Metal vocals are incredibly diverse, it is the loosest part of the genre. Corey's vocals are in no way at odds with the definition of metal, they are far heavier then vocals found in any other genre of music and they are frequently at odds with the lead instrument (the percussion rather then the lead guitar).

I will add more if I have to justify my argument that their alternative style is essentially a blend of hardcore/grind, death metal and industrial with alternative/nu metal influences.

 

[hibernal_dream]

You cant classify metal that rigidly as you will find a lot of what is generally considered metal can be much more upbeat.

I can classify it like that if it is generally found to be true. Can you give me examples of upbeat metal songs? Beyond Finntroll and Korpiklaani I can't think of too many.

You are also singling out one song. Slipknot use the drums as the lead instrument, they basically have rhythm drums and lead drums, the guitars take the role which the drums do in normal music, this is why it is alternative and not stock standard. However the guitars are riff orientated, possess effects pedals, distortion, down-tuning and many other things considered metal.

These are considerations to do with instruments, which don't tell us much. Grindcore uses riff-oriented distorted guitar but isn't metal.

Heavy metal is generally considered to have a thick, heavy, guitar and drum orientated sound wihch is highly amplified, often with a lot of distortion, Slipknot possess all of those qualities.

Again, this concerns the shape and tone of the sound rather than structure and composition.

If you were not to call Slipknot metal you would atleast need to throw them into the category of rock and essentially metal is a type of rock music when it goes down to the absolute basics of categorisation. However to make a direct comparison to rock music, "The drum setup is generally much larger than with other forms of rock music." There is no rock band with a kit or drum set up anywhere near what Slipknot utilize.

Rock isn't metal. And I don't see the size of the drum kit as having much importance.

To quote wikipedia, "Heavy metal is traditionally characterized by loud distorted guitars, emphatic rhythms, dense bass-and-drum sound, and vigorous vocals. Metal subgenres variously emphasize, alter, or omit one or more of these tropes."

This definition is a bit broad, as it could cover grindcore, hardcore, even hard-rock.

If you go onto further read, all of the components listed as vital are present in Slipknot like the above. Slipknot use solos, on their earlier albums these solos were done with turntables and drums fitting into their more experimental approach and the wish of their producer, on volume three they use shred guitar. Slipknot are also very loud live, a crucial element.

Rolling Stones are also incredibly loud and use solos.

You mentioned the vocals are driving, Metal vocals are incredibly diverse, it is the loosest part of the genre. Corey's vocals are in no way at odds with the definition of metal, they are far heavier then vocals found in any other genre of music and they are frequently at odds with the lead instrument (the percussion rather then the lead guitar).

And being so diverse, I don't think vocals are a defining characteristic of metal, so Corey's vocals being consistent with the majority of metal vocalists doesn't say much.

 

[ALK]

I would say that Slipknot is metal, sorry can't give a long reasoning to support this. Simply because they use unorthodox elements in their music don't make them rap or techno. Metal is basicly an sub-genere of rock, a rather huge one but still.... Punk and Metal have influensed each other back and forth since the dawn of both and so on.....

 

[PanzerKunt]

Spit It Out rules. One of their songs that are actually not that bad. \m/

 

[Sabin Frost]

I can classify it like that if it is generally found to be true. Can you give me examples of upbeat metal songs? Beyond Finntroll and Korpiklaani I can't think of too many.

The point is it exists, particularly amongst a lot of those more Power/Folk feeling bands coming out of Europe

These are considerations to do with instruments, which don't tell us much. Grindcore uses riff-oriented distorted guitar but isn't metal.

Grindcore is metal, only Metal Archives does not think so and they are elistist bastards, it has more in common with hardcore then metal but it is still metal, many times Grind and Brutal Death Metal are very indistinguishable.

Again, this concerns the shape and tone of the sound rather than structure and composition.

It is true that bands like Korn focus more on sound then anything, but Slipknot use varying tempos like Death Metal and follow a lot of the structures of death metal for much of their work, where they differ is the vocal structure.

Rock isn't metal. And I don't see the size of the drum kit as having much importance.

Rock is not metal, but Metal is essentially a type of rock music. The size of a drum kit has a lot of importance as drums have been and always will be a crucial part of the metal sound, you cant have a metal band without drums.

This definition is a bit broad, as it could cover grindcore, hardcore, even hard-rock.

A lot of people argue that hard-rock is metal.

Rolling Stones are also incredibly loud and use solos.

They dont play metal though, they dont create a wall of sound or use heavy distortion, de-tuned instruments, hugely fast tempos etc.

And being so diverse, I don't think vocals are a defining characteristic of metal, so Corey's vocals being consistent with the majority of metal vocalists doesn't say much.

It says enough, you can have non-metal vocals in metal but there is not much that uses metal vocals outside of metal, if anything, the only example I can think of is that the Adelaide Symphony did a song with a death metal vocalist choir for Virgin Black. Ultimately the point is there is much more going for Slipknot being metal then not being metal.

 

[hibernal_dream]

One final thing i'd like to add, but I shouldn't have to:

Just because a number of so-called metal bands use unusual or unique elements such as choirs, folky singing, harpsichords and keyboards doesn't make any band using those elements metal. This is as silly as saying just because one band has big drums and loud guitars they are metal. It's also inductive reasoning, and a weak form of it too. Wikipedia take a lesson.

I think we need to first define what are the core characteristics of metal, systematically and analytically, based on certain well-recognised cases. So first we look to Kreator and Judas Priest and not Blut Aus Nord or Dillinger Escape Plan. Then we can look for those characteristics and say no matter what other things are there (choirs, flutes, rappers) the core base of the music is metallic: the band is metal. This is why I don't care about the loudness, speed, tunings or what size drum kit Slipknot uses: they are extrinsic to what defines metal.

What I do see as intrinsic is -
1) morbid, destructive, fantastic, romantic and/or esoteric ethos; expressed by
2) primarily classical theory, an urgency and expediency of a rhythm which is invariably downbeat, use of parallel fifths and strong or darkly shaded minor or tense relations to a tonal centre OR modal development usually based on the harmonic minor or pentatonic, and structurally a heavy use of recurring motifs which develop instead of cycle; voiced by means of
3) a core trio or quartet of guitars and drums, to which additional instruments may be added.

This is just off the top of my head, but slipknot don't fulfil #2 and isn't metal. #1 and #2 distinguish rock from metal.

 

[Sabin Frost]

One final thing i'd like to add, but I shouldn't have to:

Just because a number of so-called metal bands use unusual or unique elements such as choirs, folky singing, harpsichords and keyboards doesn't make any band using those elements metal. This is as silly as saying just because one band has big drums and loud guitars they are metal. It's also inductive reasoning, and a weak form of it too. Wikipedia take a lesson.

I think we need to first define what are the core characteristics of metal, systematically and analytically, based on certain well-recognised cases. So first we look to Kreator and Judas Priest and not Blut Aus Nord or Dillinger Escape Plan. Then we can look for those characteristics and say no matter what other things are there (choirs, flutes, rappers) the core base of the music is metallic: the band is metal. This is why I don't care about the loudness, speed, tunings or what size drum kit Slipknot uses: they are extrinsic to what defines metal.

What I do see as intrinsic is -
1) morbid, destructive, fantastic, romantic and/or esoteric ethos; expressed by
2) primarily classical theory, an urgency and expediency of a rhythm which is invariably downbeat, use of parallel fifths and strong or darkly shaded minor or tense relations to a tonal centre OR modal development usually based on the harmonic minor or pentatonic, and structurally a heavy use of recurring motifs which develop instead of cycle; voiced by means of
3) a core trio or quartet of guitars and drums, to which additional instruments may be added.

This is just off the top of my head, but slipknot don't fulfil #2 and isn't metal. #1 and #2 distinguish rock from metal.

I would say Slipknot do fufill 2, they play down-beat music, have you heard songs like Skinticket, The Nameless or Opium of the People or are you basing everything on one song alone. Duality is definetely a rockier song, but most of their music fills 2. Slipknot use dynamic rhythmic patterns and their riffs follow scalic, tritone and chromatic progressions and dissonant harmonies, playing repeating notes on the low strings of the rhythm guitars while successively playing different chords. If you want to argue the use of fifths there are power chords in Slipknot.

Again however, Duality is a much rockier song then most of Slipknot's music. Wait and Bleed, Before I forget, My Plague and Duality, basically the bands singles are much different then their album tracks and do sound rockier, all you need to do is listen to songs I mentioned above or something like Scissors or IOWA to realise that the album tracks differ greatly.

EDIT: The Heretic Anthem has no samples, keyboards, scratching or extra percussion other then the short intro at the start if you want an example of Slipknot playing Heavier music minus all the extras.

 

[hibernal_dream]

I would say Slipknot do fufill 2, they play down-beat music, have you heard songs like Skinticket, The Nameless or Opium of the People or are you basing everything on one song alone. Duality is definetely a rockier song, but most of their music fills 2. Slipknot use dynamic rhythmic patterns and their riffs follow scalic, tritone and chromatic progressions and dissonant harmonies, playing repeating notes on the low strings of the rhythm guitars while successively playing different chords. If you want to argue the use of fifths there are power chords in Slipknot.

Again however, Duality is a much rockier song then most of Slipknot's music. Wait and Bleed, My Plague, Duality and basically the bands singles are much different then their album tracks, all you need to do is listen to songs I mentioned above or something like Scissors or IOWA to realise that.

Fair enough. Only thing i'd debate is the use of rhythm. I hear a lot more off-beat emphasis in Slipknot, some of the guitar and vocals sound almost poppy in their use of syncopation, but yes, i can't argue that some songs qualify as metal.

 

[Sabin Frost]

Fair enough. Only thing i'd debate is the use of rhythm. I hear a lot more off-beat emphasis in Slipknot, some of the guitar and vocals sound almost poppy in their use of syncopation, but yes, i can't argue that some songs qualify as metal.

The majority of Slipknot's rhythmic focus centers around a kind of tribal beat due to the fact their drum kit is not their for rhythm so much, they use it to solo more then anything, its an experimental approach more then anything. There are songs however where this does not happen, such as The Heretic Anthem however.

To find the rhythm in slipknot as usually established by a drum kit you need to look at the guitars, the bass in particular.

 

[General Zaroff]

Slipknot would be so much better if they found a new vocalist and kicked the extra members out.

Let Mick take over the reigns and maybe, just maybe they could be somthing. Mick is a Death Metal fan so there could be a chance.

 

[Sabin Frost]

Slipknot would be so much better if they found a new vocalist and kicked the extra members out.

Let Mick take over the reigns and maybe, just maybe they could be somthing. Mick is a Death Metal fan so there could be a chance.

Corey is an excellent vocalist, he has the most intense vocals I have ever heard in anything, the guy screamed on stage until he coughed up blood, listen to Scissors or for an example of less-rock orientated cleans (akin to stone sour) listen to Gently. On songs such as IOWA and Skinticket I find his voice to be quite creepy as well, especially when he injects those wails he does. Most of Slipknot have a big background in metal, Joey is heavily influenced by Korn but also Morbid Angel and early 90's Roadrunner Death Metal and Clown is a massive metalhead. All the extra members have a place but if you want to hear Slipknot as they started out (with Anders of Vice Grip Throttle doing Cavalera style vocals, Clown on the kit and five members) listen to M.F.K.R.

 

[General Zaroff]

Corey is an excellent vocalist, he has the most intense vocals I have ever heard in anything, the guy screamed on stage until he coughed up blood, listen to Scissors or for an example of less-rock orientated cleans (akin to stone sour) listen to Gently. On songs such as IOWA and Skinticket I find his voice to be quite creepy as well, especially when he injects those wails he does. Most of Slipknot have a big background in metal, Joey is heavily influenced by Korn but also Morbid Angel and early 90's Roadrunner Death Metal and Clown is a massive metalhead. All the extra members have a place but if you want to hear Slipknot as they started out (with Anders of Vice Grip Throttle doing Cavalera style vocals, Clown on the kit and five members) listen to M.F.K.R.

LOL I put on MFKR because of this thread.

Found this on Slipknot's myspace, I lol'd.

hi guys, thnks for accepting the add, omg i idolise joey, i have made a shrine in my room, hopefully not that sad, i met mick aswell the day before you guys played the unholy alliance gig in birmingham, i was the only guy to get a bass guitar signed lol not sure if he still remembers me, but i still got that signature going strong man, and is it true that joey was in the same music store the day before? Hopefully you guys get everythin going again, i know the rest of stone sour wnt like it but you can do both i wish i had some card to pay for outside the nine aswell, i'll steal my dads, thnks guys ur amazing, u got me thru some tough shit

 

[Sabin Frost]

LOL I put on MFKR because of this thread.

Found this on Slipknot's myspace, I lol'd.

The band have some very extreme, passionate fans... I saw Slipknot once, it was violent to say the least.

 

[General Zaroff]

The band have some very extreme, passionate fans... I saw Slipknot once, it was violent to say the least.

Slipknot fans vs. Slayer fans

who takes teh victory

 

[VonCreep]

I can't believe someone would even ask this question. In my opinion the answer is no. As for slipknot vs slayer fans, I'd put my money on slayer fans, since I'm one myself.

 

[paranoidmexican009]

id rather call slipknot alternative rock or something. metal would be too kind of a word. slayers not bad, but im not a big fan of them

 

[Black Core]

My turn to bitch in this thread. I've started with metal because of slipknot. I still like them but don't listen to them that often no more, I used to be a real slipknot freak and I still know alot about them (even though I just say so myself). I own all of their cds, even the unreleased album Crowz that so little ppl have heard about.

in general: Slipknot are metal period
Corey taylor is one of the best vocalists there is, only problem is he completely fucked up his voice because he went too far witht he first 2-3 albums. Corey can do screams, growls and normal singing, which he all uses. Anders Consefni (previous singer) was way worse than Corey, he was more of a death metal vocalist.
Joey Jordison is one of the best drummers of these days, he has got serious good skills and speed but of course there are better drummers. His drum usage is definilty part of what makes Slipknot metal.
Bass and guitar work in general is also very metallish.

now, their first albums basicly kicked ass but they definitly sold out with vol.3, I was very disappointed witht that album.

Slipknot sells their image more like KISS does, to kids that think its neat to see guys in suits/masks on the verge of heat stroke. As far as them being metal, their music is as plastic as their masks, there is no feel to their tunes and nothing interesting about them at all.

They just started out wearing masks cuz no one would recognize them on the streets in their home towns cuz their music was hated in their starting days. They became more known and just decided to keep the masks because they had become known witht them.
Basicly all their songs handle the topic of them being hated in their early days, so it does have feeling but I can understand that the same subject can become boring after a while.

So does anyone actually have a reason to consider them metal? All I'm seeing is a lot of "they're definitely metal" with no explanations and "just because they do X doesn't make them not metal" which is dandy but doesn't address the objections raised in this thread...

turn the question around. Why are they not metal and you have the same thing.

There is no possible way you can say that Slipknot is not a metal band reasonably, whether or not you like them they fall under the definition of metal, especially volume 3 which has spoken words and shredding.

vol3 was even the most less metal album they made

I've just listened to Duality.

you listened to one song and you judge a band by that? you either very naive or ignorant.
that latter is definitly true since you know nothing about slipknot. Altough duality had the most succes, it is one of their worst songs, just like wait and bleed.

Slipknot fans vs. Slayer fans

who takes teh victory

I saw them live together with the unholy allience. There are just more 13 year old slipknot fans and the slayer fans are just older. That's the only diffrence