Do you consider Slipknot to be Metal?

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Isn't Slipknot rapcore or something? I don't really care though. Never listened to them, don't feel like it either.

And what is Black Metal? (I know its a N00B question)
 
 
I don't understand why people have to have lots of types of metal, I looked at the definition of Black Metal and I think it would describe Metal bands I heard such as Children of Bodom, which when I last checked weren't labelled as Black Metal. I mean every new type of Metal is far less an achievement then the creation of Metal itself.

Anyways I prefer Metal that has singing and is fast and not too distorted, such as Guns N' Roses and Led Zeppelin, I do like all metal though. But I HATE screamers that sound like dead guys with pneumonia. In my opinion the harder the metal, the stronger the voice of the vocalist has to be.
 
Feathers & Flames said:
I don't understand why people have to have lots of types of metal, I looked at the definition of Black Metal and I think it would describe Metal bands I heard such as Children of Bodom. Theres probably gonna be more labels of Metal coming that are gonna mean less and less to me. Anyways I prefer Metal that has singing and is fast and not too distorted, such as Guns N' Roses and Led Zeppelin, I do like all metal though.
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While those are great bands they are not metal bands. They are hard rock. And children of boredom are so far from what black metal is... really.... you need to listen to some real black metal bands and the difference should be obvious.
 
They certainly have several metal-derived traits (double kicks, dissonant tremolo picked riffs, even fairly competent shredding at times, among others), and I don't think anyone would argue that there is no metal at all present in their sound. Also, taking a handful of their guitar tabs out of context and showing how un-metal they are doesn't really prove much, as it fails to show the big picture (that's akin to me only playing the acoustic interludes from Blind Guardian's "Nightfall in Middle Earth" for someone to try and prove that they aren't metal).

However, there are certainly elements of other styles present, including rap (the sampler and DJ members, some vocal phrasing) and alternative rock ("Wait and Bleed" always struck me as a slightly heavier alternative tune). As I think hibernal_dream was sort of alluding to, an argument could be made that the extent of their metal characteristics falls below a certain threshold at which they could be considered genuinely metal. Due to the subjective nature of the criteria involved in any such claim, I'm not gonna sit here and establish that threshold as if it's a law of science, especially not with respect to Slipknot since my familiarity with their recorded output is relatively limited. From what I have heard however, I'd estimate maybe 40-60% of it is metal-derived. Whether that's qualifies them as metal or not is your call.
 
Thoth-Amon said:
They are hard rock. And children of boredom are so far from what black metal is...
Click to expand...

Hard Rock is not a real genre, it was the same thing as Heavy Metal. (People would say they were either Hard Rock or Heavy Metal meaning the same thing) at the time of Led Zeppelin, GN'R and Zeppelin are Metal. If you look on Myspace music you will see that "Hard Rock" is not in the genre list.

And for the Bodom thing, this is what I got straight off of the link you gave me.

"It is typically characterized by the use of heavily-distorted guitars, harsh high-pitched shrieking vocals, fast-paced rhythms and melodies, and unconventional song structures."

I guess they have have it all except for unvonventional song structures.

And I meant bands not labelled as Black Metal like COB I would describe as it but Black Metal is probably more than what is said on Wiki, genres always are more than what they are on a website.
 
Feathers & Flames said:
Hard Rock is not a real genre, it was the same thing as Heavy Metal. (People would say they were either Hard Rock or Heavy Metal meaning the same thing) at the time of Led Zeppelin, GN'R and Zeppelin are Metal. If you look on Myspace music you will see that "Hard Rock" is not in the genre list.

And for the Bodom thing, this is what I got straight off of the link you gave me.

"It is typically characterized by the use of heavily-distorted guitars, harsh high-pitched shrieking vocals, fast-paced rhythms and melodies, and unconventional song structures."

I guess they have have it all except for unvonventional song structures.

And I meant bands not labelled as Black Metal like COB I would describe as it but really I don't care, its just a sub-genre of Metal.
Click to expand...

Well then MySpace is not the be all and end all of musical definitions. They combine hard rock and metal because of the similarities... its simply more convenient to do so.
Secondly you need to hear black metal to hear how it really is very different from COB and stuff like that. The definition on WIKI is of course rather generic and cannot compare to listening to the real thing.
 
Feathers & Flames said:
Hard Rock is not a real genre, it was the same thing as Heavy Metal. (People would say they were either Hard Rock or Heavy Metal meaning the same thing) at the time of Led Zeppelin, GN'R and Zeppelin are Metal. If you look on Myspace music you will see that "Hard Rock" is not in the genre list.

And for the Bodom thing, this is what I got straight off of the link you gave me.

"It is typically characterized by the use of heavily-distorted guitars, harsh high-pitched shrieking vocals, fast-paced rhythms and melodies, and unconventional song structures."

I guess they have have it all except for unvonventional song structures.

And I meant bands not labelled as Black Metal like COB I would describe as it but Black Metal is probably more than what is said on Wiki, genres always are more than what they are on a website.
Click to expand...

Hard Rock and Metal are not the same thing, being heavy doesn't make you metal automatically. The bands you mentioned were the bands that lead up to the creation of the heavy metal genre, therefore the closest you can get to heavy metal before it actually is heavy metal. Also there are A LOT of genres missing from myspace, very far from a complete list.
 
Thoth-Amon said:
Well then MySpace is not the be all and end all of musical definitions. They combine hard rock and metal because of the similarities... its simply more convenient to do so.
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1) I wasn't saying they were

2) Big web sites like that would do tons of research for listing the genres, if there were differences between Hard Rock and Metal they would put Hard Rock there. Rockabilly and Southern Rock are there, there aren't huge differences between though, they have Rap and Hip-hop and the only difference between them is Rap is poetic and Hip-hop isn't. Theres not a lot of difference between Post Hardcore and Screamo but both of them are there because there is a little difference.

3) It isn't more convinient, bands right now are probably complainging how "Hard Rock" isn't there because they think its a different genre than Metal.

4) This is a thread about peoples opinions on Slipknots metallicity. If forums were for arguing this section would be "General Metal Bitching".
 
Feathers & Flames said:
1) I wasn't saying they were

2) Big web sites like that would do tons of research for listing the genres, if there were differences between Hard Rock and Metal they would put Hard Rock there. Rockabilly and Southern Rock are there, there aren't huge differences between though, they have Rap and Hip-hop and the only difference between them is Rap is poetic and Hip-hop isn't. Theres not a lot of difference between Post Hardcore and Screamo but both of them are there because there is a little difference.

3) It wouldn't be more convinient, if there was a difference bands would be complaining how "Hard Rock" isn't in the genres.
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Honestly I don't think they or the bands care all that much. It's not a music website it's a place for pedophiles to meet little boys and emos to complain and post cool artsy photos of themselves. Myspace is lazy as hell, my friends and I used to screw up peoples' myspaces all the time by exploiting glitches they had in their code.

There's a pretty huge difference between hard rock and metal, and it's pretty easy to hear. But I guess I'm just going crazy if I'm disagreeing with the hard workers of myspace who obviously deeply studied the smallest details of music before they would allow people to add music to it.
 
NinjaGeek said:
Honestly I don't think they or the bands care all that much. It's not a music website it's a place for pedophiles to meet little boys and emos to complain and post cool artsy photos of themselves. Myspace is lazy as hell, my friends and I used to screw up peoples' myspaces all the time by exploiting glitches they had in their code.

There's a pretty huge difference between hard rock and metal, and it's pretty easy to hear. But I guess I'm just going crazy if I'm disagreeing with the hard workers of myspace who obviously deeply studied the smallest details of music before they would allow people to add music to it.
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1) See number 4 of my previous post

2) There are tons of users on Myspace, all of them want to do different things.

3) Pedophiles look for both genders.

4) If I had a Grunge band, and Grunge wasn't there, I'd say "What the FUCK! Out loud.

5) Tell me some of those glitches. Not.
 
Glitches? Dunno how many of these still work but a few years back we used to do the following.

1. You could use html in a person's comments to change their background and stuff and really screw up their page.

2. They wouldn't resize your image's thumbnail if it distorted the image, so we made 1 x 30,000 pixel images for profile pictures so the thumbnail would also be 1 x 30,000. Then you could join groups and stuff and the page would get really screwed up and it would be a pain to navigate and find stuff.

3. When posting on message boards if you posted too many quotes in a post and it wouldn't let you scroll below the quotes, which also happened to be where the delete post button was. This worked well combined with #2 because you could join a group and post and even if they banned you they couldn't delete your post.
 
Base Delta Zero said:
That makes no sense. There have been countless punk and hardcore influences in metal. Early punk bands like The Exploited and GBH influenced early black metal bands. When I hear a Bathory or Darkthrone riff, it reminds me of old-school punk.

D.R.I. (especially early) has influenced hundreds of grindcore bands.

Do I need to explain the influence Black Flag had on sludge metal?

Saying 'metal' isn't 'metal' because of its hardcore influence isn't an argument that holds much water.
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Please review the topic, the argument I was responding to was that Slipknot is metal because they have metal riffs. I was showing that no, Slipknot do not have metal riffs. Are Bathory and Darkthrone metal *because* they have punk influence in their riffing?

Sabin Frost said:
There is no possible way you can say that Slipknot is not a metal band reasonably, whether or not you like them they fall under the definition of metal, especially volume 3 which has spoken words and shredding.
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Spoken words and shredding are characteristics unique to metal? :confused:

Sabin Frost said:
Slipknot is mostly a mix of Hardcore/Grind with Morbid Angel Style Death Metal and Industrial having various influences such as Korn lumped on top of it giving them the misconception of belonging to Nu Metal. The only thing they have in common with Nu Metal is that Corey's lyrical structure is rap style and he occasionally speaks the words rather then singing/growling them. The scratching and turntables as I have explained before have more akin to Industrial then Hip Hop, as does the bands extensive use of sampling and occasional keyboards. They sure as hell are not rock music, drop A and B guitars, distortion, heavy emphassis on percussion, its Brutal Alternative Metal with Korn influences.
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So the only metal influence they have is Morbid Angel? Please expand on where you see this influence in their music, and how this overrides all the other non-metal influences in their music and makes them undeniably metal.

Sabin Frost said:
I will add more if I have to justify my argument that their alternative style is essentially a blend of hardcore/grind, death metal and industrial with alternative/nu metal influences.
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Ok, by my count that makes 20% of their influences metal. What are you on about?

Sabin Frost said:
Grindcore is metal, only Metal Archives does not think so and they are elistist bastards, it has more in common with hardcore then metal but it is still metal, many times Grind and Brutal Death Metal are very indistinguishable.
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It has more in common with hardcore than metal but it's still metal? Isn't that like saying thrash has more in common with metal than punk but it's still punk?

Sabin Frost said:
A lot of people argue that hard-rock is metal.
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?!?

Sabin Frost said:
Ultimately the point is there is much more going for Slipknot being metal then not being metal.
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Ultimately you have a very confused and inadequate understanding of what metal is and its relationships with other genres of music.

Jreg said:
Also, taking a handful of their guitar tabs out of context and showing how un-metal they are doesn't really prove much, as it fails to show the big picture (that's akin to me only playing the acoustic interludes from Blind Guardian's "Nightfall in Middle Earth" for someone to try and prove that they aren't metal).
Click to expand...
I was picking feature parts of the songs. Let's look at some of their more "metal" tunes, according to Sabin Frost:

Code: 
"Scissors"

pm
e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-4---x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------

x2
e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------

e-----------------------------------------------0-0-0-0-----------
b-------------------------------0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-------------------
g-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-----------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------
a---------------------------------------------------------12\-----

e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-0-1-----0------0-1-----0------0-1------0-----0-1----------0-----
a-0-1-----0------0-1-----0------0-1------0-----0-1----------0-----

e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1
a-11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1--------11-1-1-1-1

e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-0-1---0-0---0-1---0-0--0-0---0-1---0-0---0-1---0-0--0-0---------
a-0-1---0-0---0-1---0-0--0-0---0-1---0-0---0-1---0-0--0-0---------

"Opium Of The People"
|-13-14-13-14-13-14-13-14-13-14-13-14-13-14-13-14-|-16-14-13------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|----------16-14-16-14-13---------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|-------------------------16-14-13-15-13|
|-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------|
|-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------|

...above is an excerpt from a more rock/metal lead run, but then it's back to the hardcore stuff:

|-----------------------||-------------|------------------|------------------|------------------|
|-----------------------||-------------|------------------|------------------|------------------|
|-----------------------||-------------|------------------|------------------|------------------|
|-----------------------||-------------|------------------|------------------|------------------|
|---4--1--0-------------||--5/-1-1-1-0-|--4-1-0--5/-1-1-0-|--4-1-0--5/-1-1-0-|--4-1-0--5/-1-1-0-|
|---4--1--0--4-5-6-7~~~~||-----1-1-1-0-|--4-1-0-----1-1-0-|--4-1-0-----1-1-0-|--4-1-0-----1-1-0-|

"Skin Ticket"

e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-0-0-0-0-8-8-8-8-7-5-7-7-7-7-7-7-0-0-0-0-8-8-8-8-7-5-7-7-7-0-0-0-

...vaguely metal at first glance, but then here comes the chorus:

e-----------------------------------------------------------------
b-----------------------------------------------------------------
g-----------------------------------------------------------------
d-----------------------------------------------------------------
a-0-1---0--0-1----0-0-1---0-1---0--0-1----0-0-1-------------------
d-0-1---0--0-1----0-0-1---0-1---0--0-1----0-0-1-------------------

"The Nameless"

    C#|-----------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|
    G#|-----------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|
    E |-----------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------|
    B |-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-0-0--2-2-2-2-2-2-|-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|
    F#|-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-0-0--2-2-2-2-2-2-|-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|
    B |-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-0-0--2-2-2-2-2-2-|-2-2--3-3-3-3-2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|

    C#|---------------------------------------------------------------|
    G#|---------------------------------------------------------------|
    E |---10---10---10---10---10---10---10---10---10---10---10---10-8-|
    B |-8----8----8----8----8----8----8----8----7----7----7----7----6-|
    F#|---------------------------------------------------------------|
    B |---------------------------------------------------------------|

    C#|-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|
    G#|-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|
    E |-----------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------|
    B |-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--0-0-0-0-0-0-|-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|
    F#|-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--0-0-0-0-0-0-|-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|
    B |-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--0-0-0-0-0-0-|-0-0-1-1-1-1-0-0--0-0--1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-|

"Iowa"

E----------------------------------
B----------------------------------
G----------------------------------
D-----2^-2-2-0---------------------
A-----2^-2-2-0---------------------
E-----2^-2-2-0---------------------

Bottom line, the guitar work in Slipknot is not generally metal in nature. Certainly the majority is hardcore influenced. Do you see Morbid Angel in there? Because I see things like Godsmack and Hatebreed.


Morbid Angel, for reference:

Code: 
"Maze Of Torment"

Riff A
|--------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------------|
|-------------------9/10---------------------------|
|-7-----9-----7-----7/-8--7-----9-----7------------|
|-5-000-7-000-5-000-------5-000-7-000-5-111111111--|
pm  

Riff B
|--------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------------------|
|-10-------8/9--------8/9--------------------|
|-8--------6/7--------6/7---9/10---8----6-7--|
|----0-000------0-000-----0-7/-8-0-6--9------|
pm
Look at the big picture: Slipknot is not a metal band trying to play metal, they are a band combining hardcore/grindcore/industrial/alternative/hard rock/rapcore/metal/etc to convey a message that is rooted in alternative rock ("nu metal") themes. The basis of their music, the core, the spirit of it, comes from alternative rock if anything, certainly not metal. That should be the most important determining factor.
 
Black Core said:
My turn to bitch in this thread. I've started with metal because of slipknot. I still like them but don't listen to them that often no more, I used to be a real slipknot freak and I still know alot about them (even though I just say so myself). I own all of their cds, even the unreleased album Crowz that so little ppl have heard about.

in general: Slipknot are metal period
Corey taylor is one of the best vocalists there is, only problem is he completely fucked up his voice because he went too far witht he first 2-3 albums. Corey can do screams, growls and normal singing, which he all uses. Anders Consefni (previous singer) was way worse than Corey, he was more of a death metal vocalist.
Joey Jordison is one of the best drummers of these days, he has got serious good skills and speed but of course there are better drummers. His drum usage is definilty part of what makes Slipknot metal.
Bass and guitar work in general is also very metallish.

now, their first albums basicly kicked ass but they definitly sold out with vol.3, I was very disappointed witht that album.


They just started out wearing masks cuz no one would recognize them on the streets in their home towns cuz their music was hated in their starting days. They became more known and just decided to keep the masks because they had become known witht them.
Basicly all their songs handle the topic of them being hated in their early days, so it does have feeling but I can understand that the same subject can become boring after a while.


turn the question around. Why are they not metal and you have the same thing.


vol3 was even the most less metal album they made



you listened to one song and you judge a band by that? you either very naive or ignorant.
that latter is definitly true since you know nothing about slipknot. Altough duality had the most succes, it is one of their worst songs, just like wait and bleed.


I saw them live together with the unholy allience. There are just more 13 year old slipknot fans and the slayer fans are just older. That's the only diffrence
Click to expand...

Slipknot being metal or non-metal has nothing to do with their songs being good or bad. You seem to be offended that people are saying Slipknot isn't metal - why is this? We're not saying their songs are bad, just they don't fit with our definitions. You're clear in stating that they are metal but you've said nothing about what makes them metal. On the other hand, thisisformicable and I have given solid reasons why they are not, which to my mind have yet to be refuted.
 
Life Sucks said:
Slipknot is grindcore
Click to expand...

:Smug:

actualy slipknot were a crossover band, not the same band, but there was a crossover band with the same name, formed in 83.

slipknot_front.jpg


check it here

http://www.badongo.com/pt/cfile/3085101
 
hibernal_dream said:
One final thing i'd like to add, but I shouldn't have to:

Just because a number of so-called metal bands use unusual or unique elements such as choirs, folky singing, harpsichords and keyboards doesn't make any band using those elements metal. This is as silly as saying just because one band has big drums and loud guitars they are metal. It's also inductive reasoning, and a weak form of it too. Wikipedia take a lesson.

I think we need to first define what are the core characteristics of metal, systematically and analytically, based on certain well-recognised cases. So first we look to Kreator and Judas Priest and not Blut Aus Nord or Dillinger Escape Plan. Then we can look for those characteristics and say no matter what other things are there (choirs, flutes, rappers) the core base of the music is metallic: the band is metal. This is why I don't care about the loudness, speed, tunings or what size drum kit Slipknot uses: they are extrinsic to what defines metal.

What I do see as intrinsic is -
1) morbid, destructive, fantastic, romantic and/or esoteric ethos; expressed by
2) primarily classical theory, an urgency and expediency of a rhythm which is invariably downbeat, use of parallel fifths and strong or darkly shaded minor or tense relations to a tonal centre OR modal development usually based on the harmonic minor or pentatonic, and structurally a heavy use of recurring motifs which develop instead of cycle; voiced by means of
3) a core trio or quartet of guitars and drums, to which additional instruments may be added.

This is just off the top of my head, but slipknot don't fulfil #2 and isn't metal. #1 and #2 distinguish rock from metal.
Click to expand...

You rule. You're basically saying all the things I'm too lazy to say.
 
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