Hatred in Metal Scene...

[Brutal Hate]

How come you can say it's not true? In my opinion most of the lyrics suck and that is why I'm not that interested of them. And I've listened to my share of music

Just listening to the same CoB songs all over again doesn't make you all knowing about lyrics. Listen Deathspell Omega. That's great example of what GOOD lyrics are.

Some of the Rotten sound lyrics are quite hypocrite, lyrics about evil corporate world when singer is working in the big international company...

You really don't understand those lyrics...

 

[mocobhc]

... oooooooh Miia, you seem to have hit someone´s sensible point :Smug:

 

[vitorias123]

How come you can say it's not true? In my opinion most of the lyrics suck and that is why I'm not that interested of them. And I've listened to my share of music

well,in my opinion uve been looking for wrong lyrics


I find political and "attitude towards world" lyrics mostly corny and ridiculous. Megadeth lyrics amuse me, I have this mental image Dave sitting on white leather couch and writing those lyrics and feeling the pain of the solders in the war. Motörhead, BD, BS, Evergrey, well I can't see what is so great on their lyrics. Opeth lyrics are quite nice. Honestly it's great that those lyrics give something for you, but they don't give anything for me

You see ``amusing`` lyrics ,i see someone who is trying to express his opinion abt this world and to change smth.Motorhead is much more than ``please dont touch`` and ``ace of spades``,listen to ``1917``.Then again ``you dont give a flying fuck``abt it

 

[Yaow!]

It was indeed a great post. But to comment that "Alexi is an average guitar player". He maybe technically average if you compare him to the world's best guitarists, but for me at least, guitar playing is more than just technique. Alexi's style is what I like in his playing, not only his ability to shred, since there are many who can shred faster. What he loses in technique, he wins is style. And that makes him a good guitar player, not a average, in my opinion.

And for the whole subject: Personally I don't hate any band or music style, but fanatic fans, are what I dislike.

You are absolutely right and i should have made that more clear in my post. When I say that alexi is an average guitar player I mean that on a technically level he is quite average. As others pointed out what makes a guitar player "good" is very subjective, some might not consider that being technically superior makes you a better player

 

[Lussi]

I don't need an egomaniac rockstar to write hypocrite stuff to "change the world".

 

[children of COB]

^

Do you think bands like Trivium or Bullet for My Valentine are more like art just because those are played professionally and have "clean" sound? I think not, the music they play is called sell-out.

Not that they are art, but the sound isn't instantly annoying. Then the music can suck balls (which imho does a lot, specially Trivium except a couple of songs), but the sound is not bad.

Who are you to judge? You spanish people kill bulls just for fun.

Who are you to judge either? Also, I don't think that harming animals just for the sake of it can be judged.

And yes indeed here in Spain aka Europe's most retarded country people does enjoy bullfighting, or at least most of them does. But fortunately not all, and I'm happy to count myself amongst the people who doesn't like it. I actually pretty much hate it, so I'd be glad if you didn't put me into that group of people Stereotypes are not fun. I don't think you'll like it if I call you suicidal, yet a ridiculously huge lot people here in dumbland belive scandinavians are all suicidal (then again they consider football and Eurovision culture, but whatever).

"Sounds like fucking shit" is pretty subjective tbh. I think a lot of NWOBHM/speed metal blows chunks (and fun fact: Butt actually finds the majority of thrash boring), but naturally, I'm sure a lot of people, probably you included, would disagree.

Well, to some point it can be subjective, but I really don't think that saying that a band that plays out of tune, making chords up and cranking the amp at max and just pointlessly screams (all of that out of time) sounds like shit it's subjective, and a lot of underground (meaning small local/national low budget bands) do sound like that, and I don't see what is fun about music if you can't decipher what a band is ''playing''. Which doesn't mean that I sa you have to like Slayer and Destruction.

Those bands are good despite the ultra-precise playing, not because of it. And tbh, I consider them to be rare exceptions. I like Brutal Hate's comparison; Trivium and BFMV have really precise playing... does that make them good, or more enjoyable? No.

Do you think that Sinergy or Necrophagist would be the same with Burzum's sound?

Good music is good music, regardless of the precision of the playing, or the production.
In the same vein, bad music is bad music, regardless of the precision/production.

The core can be, but shit sound and shit playing fuck it up, at least for me. If something can be played good, I don't see why it should be played worse. I don't see what that adds to the music.

Incredibly flawed argument. When it comes to math, there are rigid sets of rules that must be followed. There is no room for leeway. When it comes to music, a form of art, there are no "rules". It just needs to represent the artists vision, and provoke thought.

There are no strict rules, somehow true, but there are actually some, and if we speak of playing yes there are. Tight playing is better than sloopy playing always. I'm sorry but the ''I play this wrong/worse than I could cos it sounds better/angrier/rawer/more underground/...'' argument is an "I'm a lame player but can't admit it" argument.

"Imho" being the key words here. I like live albums, but I also really like studio albums that sound "live", and sound like they were done in one or two takes. Makes the music sound more honest.

If they sound like done in a couple of good takes (a bit of hiss or a dead note every minute it's ok) then it's ok, but not when 3/5 notes are played wrong/out of time/out of tune/...

Then our definitions of raw here differ my friend. I don't consider those bands particularly raw at all. In-your-face, yeah, but they're not particularly raw at all IMO.

So what's raw for you? For me raw is recording in the studio what you'll bring live, which is, e.g. in a 4 member (2 guitars, bass, drums and one guitar player sings) two rythm guitar tracks, one bass track, one drum track (ok, one per cymball/tom/bass drum, yeah, but you get my point), one lead track and a maximum of 4 vocals. And also not using a shitload of effects which you won't have live.

I have a couple problems with this:

A) This brings me to what I said above. Good music is good music, regardless of the production.

B) Different people have different margins of tolerance for harsher, more abrasive sounds. Naturally, there will be people with higher tolerance, and there will be people with a smaller margin of tolerance. The problem is not with the music itself, but rather the fact that you fall into the latter category. I know this is gonna make me sound like a massive elitist, but simply put, you are not the target audience that this music is aimed at.​

No comment on A, but on B yes it does sound elitist but, more than elitist, sounds like a fucking lame excuse. "You don't like my music because it's not intented for you". I'm sorry, but I don't like some underground BM (which, again, is not Darkthrone or Burzum or Immortal or those bands) because they play out of time, sometimes even out of tune and many times purposefuly looking for the most "raw" (I call it shit) sound. But it's not the sound itself what makes me not like them, it's the purposeful search for it, the search for a hard to hear track.

Inearthed/Vader/Phagist/... demos have shitty sound too, but it's because they didn't have more money to do them and they did their best, and the playing is really good though. And then as they got more money they recorded with better sound quality.

I don't agree with the anti-christian ideologies, or even the actions, of most BM bands (being somewhat religious myself)... but whatever they believe is their business. It doesn't affect the quality of the music, so it's really not relevant.

If it was just what they belived I wouldn't care, but when it affects other people (and it doesn't have exactly good effects, I don't think anyone likes being beaten up for the sake of it) I do care.

 

[valkokukka]

Just listening to the same CoB songs all over again doesn't make you all knowing about lyrics. Listen Deathspell Omega. That's great example of what GOOD lyrics are.

You really don't understand those lyrics...

well,in my opinion uve been looking for wrong lyrics

I think these comments just show how difficult it's to interpret text. If you would have understood my point comments above would have been unnecessary. Also I find it quite amusing that you two think you know what I have been listening past 22 years .

I believe everyone interpret lyrics differently based on their own experiences and expectational. If one looks for answers she'll find them no matter what writer originally though of as well as if one has cynical attitude toward lyrics she'll find them amusing and hypocrite. Just that you interpret lyrics in one way doesn't make it truth and other interpretation false.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

First, lyrics

Most of COB's lyrics and half of the vocals are mediocre, I agree. However there's brilliant stuff in it as well, but you can't compare it to for example Death who have awesome lyrics and vocals. Alexi does however have many different styles of vocals he's used over the years, some of them are goddamn brilliant as are some lines of lyrics, but generally they're not the bench mark.

being able to shred fast does NOT make somebody a good guitar player

Well, I think the main thing about COB is that it sounds good, and is also difficult and fairly complex to play. You can't expect everyone to think the more complex and weird the playing is, the better it is. Overall COB is still my favourite music by a mile, I enjoy it best.

I'm sensing you have a problem with COB sounding too good in a simple fashion so it doesn't give you a challenge to like it. But can you post a video of a song you think is so much higher up there than COB? Maybe I can learn something. Of course if there will be a band I someday enjoy more than COB, then that would just be cool indeed.

 

[Yaow!]

give the faceless a few listens, they've become one of my favourite bands recently:


Also obscura, containing 2 ex necrophagist members:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesr2sieg[/ame]

 

[vitorias123]

Most of COB's lyrics and half of the vocals are mediocre, I agree. However there's brilliant stuff in it as well, but you can't compare it to for example Death who have awesome lyrics and vocals. Alexi does however have many different styles of vocals he's used over the years, some of them are goddamn brilliant as are some lines of lyrics, but generally they're not the bench mark.



Well, I think the main thing about COB is that it sounds good, and is also difficult and fairly complex to play. You can't expect everyone to think the more complex and weird the playing is, the better it is. Overall COB is still my favourite music by a mile, I enjoy it best.

I'm sensing you have a problem with COB sounding too good in a simple fashion so it doesn't give you a challenge to like it. But can you post a video of a song you think is so much higher up there than COB? Maybe I can learn something. Of course if there will be a band I someday enjoy more than COB, then that would just be cool indeed.

A lot of bands are better,from melodeath and power bands(i dont think its right to compare progressive bands with COB,cause COB has nothing to do with it)whatever genre u consider COB to be,for example when it comes to death melodic Carcass has way better riffs,solos,lyrics and vocals than COB,as a matter of fact when i heard Heartwork for the 1st time i got sick of COB,cause i realised COB is very very far away from Carcass when it comes to everything

but at the end why to bother,if i think its better its still not better for some ppl. Its just matter of taste

 

[The Butt]

Not that they are art, but the sound isn't instantly annoying. Then the music can suck balls (which imho does a lot, specially Trivium except a couple of songs), but the sound is not bad.

As I said, "bad" is subjective. There are people with a higher tolerance for abrasive sounds... rawer BM is merely metal targeted at those people.

If you don't like how harsh raw BM is then fine, but don't go saying that it's "bad" merely because you don't understand the musical aims of the genre.

Well, to some point it can be subjective, but I really don't think that saying that a band that plays out of tune, making chords up and cranking the amp at max and just pointlessly screams (all of that out of time) sounds like shit it's subjective

You make it seem like this happens a lot. Point me to a raw BM band you've heard that does this please. I don't think I've ever heard one that actually "plays out of tune" or "out of time".

And "pointlessly screams"? This statement reeks of bias.

and a lot of underground (meaning small local/national low budget bands) do sound like that, and I don't see what is fun about music if you can't decipher what a band is ''playing''. Which doesn't mean that I sa you have to like Slayer and Destruction.

Tbh I do like Slayer (haven't heard Destruction), but I was just making a point.

But I can decipher notes and whatnot just fine, even with the rawer sound. It does take effort, but BM has never been a genre about shredding, having fun, and rocking out. It's meant to put one in a trance, take one on a journey. The two genres have different musical aims... this is what you fail to realize here.

Do you think that Sinergy or Necrophagist would be the same with Burzum's sound?

I don't. The rawer and admittedly sloppier sound of Burzum would not work with really shreddy music like Sinergy or Phagist. (Short aside: I prefer Burzum over the two other bands tbh, despite Varg's sloppy playing)

I have a question: Would a band like Ildjarn sound better with a sound more like Sinergy? I think quite the opposite tbh.

The core can be, but shit sound and shit playing fuck it up, at least for me. If something can be played good, I don't see why it should be played worse. I don't see what that adds to the music.

ALL I am saying, is that playing precision, is not everything, ESPECIALLY in a genre that couldn't give two shits about acrobatics, like BM. If you are expecting the genre to be played with top-notch playing all the time, you miss the point entirely. This is an example where feel >>>>>>>>>> acrobatics.

There are no strict rules, somehow true, but there are actually some, and if we speak of playing yes there are. Tight playing is better than sloopy playing always. I'm sorry but the ''I play this wrong/worse than I could cos it sounds better/angrier/rawer/more underground/...'' argument is an "I'm a lame player but can't admit it" argument.

See above homie g

If they sound like done in a couple of good takes (a bit of hiss or a dead note every minute it's ok) then it's ok, but not when 3/5 notes are played wrong/out of time/out of tune/...

lololololgeneralization

As I said above, point me to bands that do this. You're the one making the point, the burden of proof's on you.

So what's raw for you? For me raw is recording in the studio what you'll bring live, which is, e.g. in a 4 member (2 guitars, bass, drums and one guitar player sings) two rythm guitar tracks, one bass track, one drum track (ok, one per cymball/tom/bass drum, yeah, but you get my point), one lead track and a maximum of 4 vocals. And also not using a shitload of effects which you won't have live.

What is raw for me?

Burzum - Filosofem (only that one, the earlier ones really aren't raw in the slightest)
Ildjarn - Forest Poetry
Deathspell Omega - Si Monvmentvm Reqvires, Circvmspice
Mayhem - Live in Leipzig

They sound abrasive as fuck, and it sounds like a buzzsaw on the ears. Really adds to the harsh atmosphere of the songs... it gives a blatant disregard for the listener, which I enjoy. Makes the listener work for their musical experience. (inb4 butt you pretentious asshole :V)

No comment on A, but on B yes it does sound elitist but, more than elitist, sounds like a fucking lame excuse. "You don't like my music because it's not intented for you".

Well I don't really know what else to tell you, that's just how it is man. The genre has musical aims of its own, it's not like death metal or thrash in the slightest. I'd go so far as to call it a polar opposite.

If you are looking for the genre to always have ultra-precise playing, and water itself down with a cleaner sound, you're really missing the point. *shrug*

I'm sorry, but I don't like some underground BM (which, again, is not Darkthrone or Burzum or Immortal or those bands) because they play out of time, sometimes even out of tune and many times purposefuly looking for the most "raw" (I call it shit) sound. But it's not the sound itself what makes me not like them, it's the purposeful search for it, the search for a hard to hear track.

That's fine, that you don't like it. As I've shown though, you're expecting rawer BM to be something its not here. So you really can't call it "shit".

Inearthed/Vader/Phagist/... demos have shitty sound too, but it's because they didn't have more money to do them and they did their best, and the playing is really good though. And then as they got more money they recorded with better sound quality.

I've heard Phagist's and Bodom's demos. They really don't sound like shit at all tbh, they're pretty tame.

And that's fine, that the playing is decent... DM is a genre that really benefits from precise playing. With BM on the other hand, it really does not fucking matter. The focus in BM is not on the compositions themselves, or on ALL ACROBATICS ALL THE TIME :V, but on atmosphere my friend, something DM and thrash lacks. And the harsher sounds only add to that fucking hateful, cold atmosphere.

If it was just what they belived I wouldn't care, but when it affects other people (and it doesn't have exactly good effects, I don't think anyone likes being beaten up for the sake of it) I do care.

Meh. Call me cold, but I don't. :/

The artists have put work into art to be enjoyed, I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to separately enjoy the music.

 

[Brutal Hate]

Who are you to judge either? Also, I don't think that harming animals just for the sake of it can be judged.

And yes indeed here in Spain aka Europe's most retarded country people does enjoy bullfighting, or at least most of them does. But fortunately not all, and I'm happy to count myself amongst the people who doesn't like it. I actually pretty much hate it, so I'd be glad if you didn't put me into that group of people Stereotypes are not fun. I don't think you'll like it if I call you suicidal, yet a ridiculously huge lot people here in dumbland belive scandinavians are all suicidal (then again they consider football and Eurovision culture, but whatever).

People always have stereotypes and those aren't always negative. But you also had stereotype of BM people as animal slaughters and bad artists. Which I consider ridiculous because it's not true.

No comment on A, but on B yes it does sound elitist but, more than elitist, sounds like a fucking lame excuse. "You don't like my music because it's not intented for you". I'm sorry, but I don't like some underground BM (which, again, is not Darkthrone or Burzum or Immortal or those bands) because they play out of time, sometimes even out of tune and many times purposefuly looking for the most "raw" (I call it shit) sound. But it's not the sound itself what makes me not like them, it's the purposeful search for it, the search for a hard to hear track.

That's the way it is. BM was never even meant for the masses.

 

[eveningninja]

hay guise, were the hate crew we stand and we wont fall

 

[grey knight]

Hate is for the weak...

 

[children of COB]

Posts that we're both making too long and boring other people.

You think sloopiness and worse sound than what you could get doesn't make the music worse or less enjoyable and that beliefs don't matter.

I like tight playing, nice sound and don't want assholes playing the music.

We're not going to agree, so I'd say it's better to leave it. I supose tastes are tastes.

People always have stereotypes and those aren't always negative. But you also had stereotype of BM people as animal slaughters and bad artists. Which I consider ridiculous because it's not true.

I think I've said like a million times that I'm not talking about BM in general, I'm talking about underground BM, local bands who don't look for what The Butt would call a rawer sound, but just crank the amp to the worse they can get. The real/serious/a bit more experienced BM bands are another worl. I don't like them, yeah, but I won't say they're shit. I will say that though about their beliefs, because the vast majority of BM world is into the pig/animals slaughter thing and all the dumb satanism.

 

[Brutal Hate]

You think sloopiness and worse sound than what you could get doesn't make the music worse or less enjoyable and that beliefs don't matter.

I like tight playing, nice sound and don't want assholes playing the music.

We're not going to agree, so I'd say it's better to leave it. I supose tastes are tastes.

Typical response when you can't answer to the The Butt's questions.

 

[(__Joonas__)]

when i heard Heartwork for the 1st time i got sick of COB,cause i realised COB is very very far away from Carcass when it comes to everything

Well, if you ask me, there's no fucking way Carcass is better than COB. It all depends what kind of music you've listened before.

 

[DHG]

Heartwork is such a boring album. Necroticism is waaayyy better.

 

[vitorias123]

I listened to COB mostly Heartwork blow me away when i heard it, but then again i was only 13
I agree that Necroticism is way better than Heartwork,but its better to compare COB with Heartwok

 

[grey knight]

Btw. CoB people could check out Cradle of Filth, I think the biggest difference is that Dani uses lot more makeup than Alexi...and reaper is replaced with a black goddes thing.