NFL 2017

[crimsonfloyd]

I could pick just about any stat other than turnovers. A 52% completion percentage against a green secondary in a WCO/college style offense is a sign of poor QB play. Under 7 YPA is poor as well. The running game killed the Cowboys in the second half, not Wentz. He's had 1 game that is "in another stratosphere" this year, and that was against Arizona.

Have you watched them game yet? Or are you going off stat lines and summaries?

Yeah, more things unquantifiable: "lifting his team".

A lot in sports in unquantifiable. Peters goes down and Wentz still looks like an All-Pro. Smith goes down and Prescott looks like a 4th round pick.

But if we want to go off stats, we can.
TDs: Wentz 1st, Prescott 9th
Yds: Wentz 11th, Prescott 19th
Yds/At: Wentz 9th, Prescott 25th #captiancheckdown
QBR: Wentz 4th, Prescott 16th
Pct: Wentz 30th, Prescott 16th

Then we can look at the most important QB situational stats: Redzone and 3rd down.

Redzone:
Wentz 27/42 17 TDs 0 Ints
Prescott 23/44 12 TDs 2 Ints

I can't find the 3rd/4th down stats, but Wentz has been excellent on 3rd and 4th down and wouldn't be shocked if he led the league in conversion rate.

Watson and Wentz will probably be good for years to come (although Watson is at risk for being another RG3 with the amount of running he's doing and already blowing out the ACL as well). But again, the Eagles have finally managed to not go into the season with a bunch of JAGs in the receiving corps and combined with their consistantly top D, are winning games. If Agholor and JMatthews were still the top receiving options, and RMatthews/Sproles were the backfield options, I doubt the Eagles would be as explosive on offense.

I don't disagree that the upgrade at WR/RB have improved the team (although Sproles is still a big loss; we have no one else on the team that could do the things he does). However, the biggest upgrade has been the difference between first year Wentz and second year Wentz. If we had the same weapons as last year I doubt we would still be 9-1, but we would still leading this division thanks to the progress of Wentz and the defense.

 

[Dak]

Have you watched them game yet? Or are you going off stat lines and summaries?

A lot in sports in unquantifiable. Peters goes down and Wentz still looks like an All-Pro. Smith goes down and Prescott looks like a 4th round pick.

But if we want to go off stats, we can.
TDs: Wentz 1st, Prescott 9th
Yds: Wentz 11th, Prescott 19th
Yds/At: Wentz 9th, Prescott 25th #captiancheckdown
QBR: Wentz 4th, Prescott 16th
Pct: Wentz 30th, Prescott 16th

Then we can look at the most important QB situational stats: Redzone and 3rd down.

Redzone:
Wentz 27/42 17 TDs 0 Ints
Prescott 23/44 12 TDs 2 Ints

I can't find the 3rd/4th down stats, but Wentz has been excellent on 3rd and 4th down and wouldn't be shocked if he led the league in conversion rate.

I've watched all the Dallas games except the Philly game, and I've seen three other Philly games. You're trying to argue against a strawman - I never said Wentz was bad. I did say based on your unquantifiable claims I could claim that he was. Prescott was beating Wentz in QBR until Smith went down IIRC. What has happened in the 2 games since Peters injury? 4 sacks. The 2 games since Smith went out? 12 sacks. "Big V" isn't out there doing a Chaz Green impression. You can't play ball when you're on the ground in 4 seconds, especially since Garrett's Coryell system involves a lot of long-developing routes, and the receivers are all relatively slow.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I've watched all the Dallas games except the Philly game, and I've seen three other Philly games. You're trying to argue against a strawman - I never said Wentz was bad. I did say based on your unquantifiable claims I could claim that he was. Prescott was beating Wentz in QBR until Smith went down IIRC. What has happened in the 2 games since Peters injury? 4 sacks. The 2 games since Smith went out? 12 sacks. "Big V" isn't out there doing a Chaz Green impression. You can't play ball when you're on the ground in 4 seconds, especially since Garrett's Coryell system involves a lot of long-developing routes, and the receivers are all relatively slow.

LOL when did I say you were saying Wentz was bad? You're making up a strawman where there is none. I assume we can both acknowledge that both quarterbacks are at the very least good. What I am saying is that Wentz is playing very good to great football, and I think both the stats and the eye test demonstrate that.

And I somewhat agree with you on the Smith/Green situation. I somewhat give Prescott a pass for the Falcons game. The protection was terrible, and as I said at the time, Garrett and the coaching staff did nothing to adjust. Still, Prescott did nothing in that game to help. The Eagles game, on the other hand, Prescott had satisfactory protection until the game got out of hand, and still couldn't make anything happen. He's still got multiple elite linemen and a solid arsenal of skill players, so there has to be a limit to how much of an excuse the Smith injury can be IF you are going to claim that he's an elite QB. If he's just a game manager then that sort of drop-off is what you would expect when two key players go down.

 

[Dak]

Prescott had satisfactory protection until the game got out of hand, and still couldn't make anything happen. He's still got multiple elite linemen and a solid arsenal of skill players, so there has to be a limit to how much of an excuse the Smith injury can be IF you are going to claim that he's an elite QB. If he's just a game manager then that sort of drop-off is what you would expect when two key players go down.

Elliott is the only homerun threat on the team currently (Morris is a decent back but he isn't taking it to the house from over 50 yards), and Beasely is the best receiver in the bunch and he is drawing extra coverage this year. Bryant is slow and has developed pan hands and Williams is and has been a garbage bodycatcher who is good for about 1-2 decent games a year; did not like him being resigned. Witten can catch but he isn't going anywhere afterwards. Obviously the rest of the Oline is very good, but when the guy responsible for the premier passrusher on the other team just stands there, it doesn't really matter much what the other 4 do. Looking at the highlights Dak didn't play well for whatever reason, but every QB has a bad game. I will say the last two games have finally completely soured me on Garrett. I gave him a pass for 2015, and the 8-8 years because the team did need a rebuild. But letting Chaz stay out there and not sliding protection etc etc, and refusing the update the passing scheme at all despite rules changes etc has me fed up. He has no ability to adjust within a game, and that's why other teams come out after halftime, adjust to his gameplan, and run wild in the 2nd halves.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Prescott goes out on Thanksgiving and substantiates everything I said about him.

 

[Dak]

The entire team has played like dogshit since Zeke went on suspension, looking like the Denver game. Also is reminiscent of some games in Garrett's coaching past when there have notable injuries before. It's not possible that everyone - including multi-time All Pros - forgot how to play football. The only conclusion I can come to is the coaches went into turtle mode with the gameplan without Zeke, which is not way the team has been built to play. The defense isn't good enough to protect the offense; it has to work the other way. I don't think Dak needs Zeke, but Garrett's system does - or a Romo changing the play at the line constantly (which he did). Dak's only in his second year, and it takes time to be able to do that. Multiple players and coaches have called out Garrett's system as super simple. It's even more anemic when he tries to "play it safe".

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Another annihilation by the Eagles. Wentz with another MVP performance and the defense was smothering, allowing no 1st downs in the 1st half. They have beat their past two opponents 68-12. Have beat their last four opponents 152-45, all by 23+ points. I'm actually looking forward to seeing them play the Seahawks and Rams, as at this point they will benefit from a challenge on the road.

Edit: Just bought my ticket to see the Eagles vs. the Rams in two weeks. I really regret not going to the Chargers game, especially considering the intimacy of the stadium. Definitely don't want to make the same mistake twice.

 

[Jimmy... Dead.]

I think the Eagles are solid but I want to see them play an actual contender. Best team they beat this year is who, the Panthers? Meh I believe their average opponent winning percentage is like .400

When they play the Rams we'll know what's up. Seahawks might be a problem but without Sherman & Chancellor and that awful Oline making Wilson throw backwards i doubt it

 

[EternalMetal]

Wentz vs Dak seems to be a pointless debate when looking at this current season imo. Wentz is part of a team that is operating on all cylinders and winning on momentum, whereas the Cowboys seem to be struggling in areas that beyond just QB play. Personally id give both of them the nod for emerging franchise-level QBs who are playing slightly above the level of other young QBs like Winston or Mariota. It is easy to say the win-streak Wentz looks better than the slumping Dak, but even the best QBs look like shit when their teams are struggling.

Anyways, how bout that Eli benching? Everyone is saying that Eli "deserves" better, but in all fairness he was actually given the opportunity to choose whether he wanted to start each game or not. Tbh I dont think it is the worst idea ever to want to evaluate the potential of the backup QBs in an irredeemable season, especially as your starting QB is aging (hes not Tom Brady, so dont act like it Giants fans), but this decision was stupid for the coaches considering the expected uproar. McAdoo is fucking doomed, lmao.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I think the Eagles are solid but I want to see them play an actual contender. Best team they beat this year is who, the Panthers? Meh I believe their average opponent winning percentage is like .400

When they play the Rams we'll know what's up. Seahawks might be a problem but without Sherman & Chancellor and that awful Oline making Wilson throw backwards i doubt it

The Panthers are an actual contender (8-3). Same record as the Rams. Eagles were clearly the better team when they faced the Panthers on the road on a short week. I feel less concerned about their easy schedule because they've been absolutely annihilating weaker opponents.

That said, I agree I'm looking forward to seeing how we play against two actual contenders on the road.

Wentz vs Dak seems to be a pointless debate when looking at this current season imo. Wentz is part of a team that is operating on all cylinders and winning on momentum, whereas the Cowboys seem to be struggling in areas that beyond just QB play. Personally id give both of them the nod for emerging franchise-level QBs who are playing slightly above the level of other young QBs like Winston or Mariota.

Slightly above Winston or Mariota? Winston has 10 TDs and 6 ints and Mariota has 9 TDs and 12 ints. Wentz has 28 TDs and 5 ints. I seriously wonder if you've actually watched all these QBs play this year. Wentz is doing things before and after the snap that the other QBs mentioned haven't shown the ability to do.

It is easy to say the win-streak Wentz looks better than the slumping Dak, but even the best QBs look like shit when their teams are struggling.

Remind me of when in the careers of Payton Manning or Tom Brady they had three straight games where his team failed to break 10 points, 0 TDs, and 8 turnovers. Oh that's right... they never had a stretch like that.

Anyways, how bout that Eli benching? Everyone is saying that Eli "deserves" better, but in all fairness he was actually given the opportunity to choose whether he wanted to start each game or not. Tbh I dont think it is the worst idea ever to want to evaluate the potential of the backup QBs in an irredeemable season, especially as your starting QB is aging (hes not Tom Brady, so dont act like it Giants fans), but this decision was stupid for the coaches considering the expected uproar. McAdoo is fucking doomed, lmao.

I think the "start but don't finish" idea is condescending. Had they just benched him straight up, it would have been much more reasonable and would make sense for the reasons you mentioned. However, what I don't understand is benching him for Geno Smith. Davis Webb? Why not? He's young. Let's see if he's got anything. But Smith?

 

[EternalMetal]

Slightly above Winston or Mariota? Winston has 10 TDs and 6 ints and Mariota has 9 TDs and 12 ints. Wentz has 28 TDs and 5 ints. I seriously wonder if you've actually watched all these QBs play this year. Wentz is doing things before and after the snap that the other QBs mentioned haven't shown the ability to do.

Im still remembering a season where Wentz threw for 16 TDs and 14 ints. Dak was 23/4 last year, and there were claims that he was doing all that pre-snap wizardry that you are saying Wentz is doing now. Simple, good teams make even just decent QBs look better. Winston and Mariota are on shit teams, but tbh I thought it was a compliment to Dak/Wentz that they are a cut above vets that are a year more experienced than them.

Remind me of when in the careers of Payton Manning or Tom Brady they had three straight games where his team failed to break 10 points, 0 TDs, and 8 turnovers. Oh that's right... they never had a stretch like that.

And remind me when Brady had a TD/Int ratio as bad as 16/14 in 16 games like Wentz had last year.

lol, lets compare rookies to hall of famers. No thanks. Neither Tom nor Peyton had a 100+ passer rating in their first 7 years (Dak had one in his rookie season, Wentz is having one now). There is no point in comparing stats about which QB is better without more data. Both QBs however have been proven to excel, and are imo better than the class the year before them (Winston/Mariota), which are also proven to be worthy of being franchise QBs. Whether they can exceed players like Cousins/Dalton/Smith/perhaps Rivers shall be revealed once one of them can reach a super bowl or two.

I think the "start but don't finish" idea is condescending. Had they just benched him straight up, it would have been much more reasonable and would make sense for the reasons you mentioned. However, what I don't understand is benching him for Geno Smith. Davis Webb? Why not? He's young. Let's see if he's got anything. But Smith?

I imagine because if Webb performs any worse than Geno, he isnt worth any more training. Given that their starting QB is 37 years old, it is more than worth it to find out if they have a viable starter in the next year or two. Eli isnt exactly giving backups any real game experience at this point (2 and 9), and with a statistical chance in hell of making the playoffs, why not give your current roster a bit more in-game experience in order to evaluate them? Not every QB is Tom Brady and can play consistently in their 40s. The Giants should be looking toward the next franchise QB that can produce them a winning season, and there is no real reason to start Eli at this point. Unfortunately the team probably wont like this strategy, but honestly when has an aging professional athlete been given 'what they deserve'? It is all about winning in the end, and in the long run this strategy is as good as letting Manning needlessly play out a losing season.

 

[Dak]

Amazing how much worse Wentz looks against a good defense. Like, it's almost as if there's a relationship between QB play and the quality of the opponent.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Looking forward to that Humble Pie come round Divisional Round playoffs time.

 

[Dak]

Damnit, Reese and McAdoo are out.

 

[viewerfromnihil]

Damnit, Reese and McAdoo are out.

Funny. I just read this morning (EU time) that McAdoo said he was going to coach until his keycard didn't work.

 

[Dak]

Funny. I just read this morning (EU time) that McAdoo said he was going to coach until his keycard didn't work.

Guess it didn't work.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

Im still remembering a season where Wentz threw for 16 TDs and 14 ints. Dak was 23/4 last year, and there were claims that he was doing all that pre-snap wizardry that you are saying Wentz is doing now. Simple, good teams make even just decent QBs look better. Winston and Mariota are on shit teams, but tbh I thought it was a compliment to Dak/Wentz that they are a cut above vets that are a year more experienced than them.

1. Mariota is not on a shit team
2. Some people are suggesting Winston should be benched.

The fact you’re saying Wentz is only slightly better than these guys seriously damages your credibility.

lol, lets compare rookies to hall of famers. No thanks. Neither Tom nor Peyton had a 100+ passer rating in their first 7 years (Dak had one in his rookie season, Wentz is having one now). There is no point in comparing stats about which QB is better without more data. Both QBs however have been proven to excel, and are imo better than the class the year before them (Winston/Mariota), which are also proven to be worthy of being franchise QBs. Whether they can exceed players like Cousins/Dalton/Smith/perhaps Rivers shall be revealed once one of them can reach a super bowl or two.

I generally agree with your overall point. I do think elite quaterbacks don’t have stretches like Dink and Dak just had during their careers, ans if they do, it’s their rookie year.

Amazing how much worse Wentz looks against a good defense. Like, it's almost as if there's a relationship between QB play and the quality of the opponent.

He’s had good games against good defenses this year. He had a poor game against a strong and desperate team on the road. Still could have won if he didn’t fumble into the endzone and if Peterson would have challenged the illegal forward lateral. And still would have been the game of the month for Dink and Dak.

Even in defeat, Wentz made two amazing plays that only a few other players on the planet could make.

Overall, I’m not gonna overreact to one loss. I’m excited to see them in person this weekend.

 

[Dak]

And still would have been the game of the month for Dink and Dak.

This is true but:

Even in defeat, Wentz made two amazing plays that only a few other players on the planet could make.

He showed off arm strength. No one ever doubted he had that. I'm not saying Wentz is bad, he's shaping up to be a top 5 QB in the NFL going forward. But he is only one year removed from some really poor decision making when under duress, and in the first half against both Dallas and Seattle, he was dinking and dunking and shitting the bed. He isn't out of the newbie woods yet.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

He showed off arm strength. No one ever doubted he had that. I'm not saying Wentz is bad, he's shaping up to be a top 5 QB in the NFL going forward. But he is only one year removed from some really poor decision making when under duress, and in the first half against both Dallas and Seattle, he was dinking and dunking and shitting the bed. He isn't out of the newbie woods yet.

We actually don't disagree here other than on minor details (it's not just his arm strength, but that plus his athleticism, size, and elusiveness). I think that what's amazing is that he's doing what he's doing while still in the "newbie woods".

 

[Dak]

We actually don't disagree here other than on minor details (it's not just his arm strength, but that plus his athleticism, size, and elusiveness). I think that what's amazing is that he's doing what he's doing while still in the "newbie woods".

When I think of elusive, I think Romo or Wilson, and Wentz doesn't display that talent. He is however, uncannily athletic for a 6'5" white dude, and pulls out of arm tackles via size like Cam Newton. However, unlike Newton, Wentz doesn't generally airmail his passes.

Edit: Speaking of Newton, based on what I'm seeing this year I am concerned that Dak won't progress past a rich man's Cam Newton. He's got more between the ears, but isn't as big, and his footwork is sloppier than last year. Not sure how much of that is getting antsy from poor pass protection this year, and how much is going to get fixed with time. Not concerned about being an RG3 because his build is totally different. Interestingly, he threw far better after his hand was mashed against the Redskins than before. Wondering if he has been too confident/dependent in his athleticism, and the mild injury made him revert to more solid basics. You can win with a Newton or a Newton+, but requires a solid defense and running game.