Opeth and Tool

[Master_Debater]

They guys in Opeth listen to quite a bit of Tool, and you can hear influences in the guitar work.

 

[KielbasaSausage]

it takes like 5 listens to really start to "get" it.

if it has taken you 5 listens to get any tool album, I question what other bands you normally listen to...

They guys in Opeth listen to quite a bit of Tool, and you can hear influences in the guitar work.

neither guitarists listen to tool, but i agree that both martins do. i dont see how tool has influenced opeths music in any way...

 

[the_drip]

if it has taken you 5 listens to get any tool album, I question what other bands you normally listen to...


neither guitarists listen to tool, but i agree that both martins do. i dont see how tool has influenced opeths music in any way...

pirates kick ass. as does OPeth and Blue Moon Belgian White!!!!

 

[Master_Debater]

Peter's Info:

Essential records:
Anything by Porcupine Tree
Carmen “Fandangos in space”
Camel “Mirage”
Red House Painters “Red House Painters”
Nick Drake “Five leavs left”
The first seven albums by Iron Maiden
Black Sabbath “Sabbath bloody sabbath”
Sixteen Horsepower “Secret south”
The Beatles “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band”
The first six albums by Led Zeppelin
David Bowie “Hunky Dory”
Metallica “Master of puppets”
Tool “Lateralus”
Morbid Angel “Altars of madness”
A couple of hundreds more...
Playlist (Dec *02):
Porcupine Tree “In absentia”
Tool “Lateralus”
Sixteen Horsepower “Folklore”
Diabolical Masquerade “Death’s design”
The Cure “Paris”
Aphrodite’s Child “666”
Joni Mitchell “Clouds”
Stina Nordenstam “This is Stina Nordenstam”
Led Zeppelin ”III”
Morbid Angel ”Altars of madness”
Skinny Puppy “Last rights”
Nick Drake “Bryter Layter”

 

[Master_Debater]

And Mikael listens to APC, which is like Tool-lite.

 

[KielbasaSausage]

Well, tool's lateralus came out 2001; i dont see ANY tool influence whatsoever in Damnation and Deliverance in the guitars. maybe you are on crack?

APC is not tool light, which proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. APC has the same singer, ill give you that much, but i dont see how APC remotely sounds like tool (except for their latter album which i hear that Maynard forced his influence on the guitars, which is probably why the album didnt come out so good).

 

[fadingessence]

if it has taken you 5 listens to get any tool album, I question what other bands you normally listen to...

Godspeed You Black Emperor, A Silver Mt. Zion, Sigur Ros, Agalloch, Green Carnation, Ulver, The Black Heart Procession, Arcturus

My point was many people take Tool to casually, just assume they're accessible because the band sells large quantities of albums, and miss the deeper musical/lyrical side.

If Tool doesn't make you THINK then I question what other bands you listen to, or if you even understand those that you do.

The whole mass of text below refers to the ideas behind the lyrics to 46+2, read it if you're curious, if you don't care then spare me the crap about a long post.

******************************************************
What does it all mean, 46, 2, shadows?
You could write a whole FAQ for this one question alone; the major underlying principles relate to chromosomes and Jungian theory. Some of the ideas behind this song are based on the teachings of Drunvalo Melchizadek. Here's a snip of an interview with him (Leading Edge, 12/95):

"There are three totally different kinds of humans on the Earth, meaning that they perceive the One reality in three different ways, interpreted differently. The first kind of human has a chromosome composition of 42+2. They comprise a unity consciousness that does not see anything outside themselves as being separate from themselves. To them, there is only one energy - one life, one beingness that moves everywhere. Anything happening anywhere is within them, as well. They are like cells in the body. They are all connected to a single consciousness that moves through all of them. These are the aboriginals in Australia. There might be a few African tribes left like this. Then, there is our level, comprising 44+2 chromosomes. We are a disharmonic level of consciousness that is used as a steppingstone from the 42+2 level to the next level, 46+2...These two additional chromosomes change everything."

Rachel Wells has written this moderately long, excellent summary of all the relevant Jungian concepts:
"Anima / Animus (pronounced On-ee-mah):

In Jungian psychology, the anima refers to personality traits regarded as feminine that are often repressed into the unconscious of males while the animus refers to traits regarded as masculine that are often repressed into the unconsciousness of females.

Although suppressed from conscious awareness, the anima/animus influences our behavior in powerful ways. In most individuals,it is projected onto people of the opposite sex and accounts for the experience of falling in love with someone we hardly know. As the unconscious pole of the self, the counter-ego represented by the anima/animus can also be a guide to one's own unconscious realm. It is often experienced as the guiding female (if you're male) or male (if you're female) presence in dreams.

The Shadow:

In Carl Jung's personality theory, the ego represents the individual's sense of personal self. The sense of personal identity is purchased, however, at the expense of certain tendencies that are rejected as 'not-self'. According to Jung, these rejected traits come together as a kind of unconscious 'counter-ego' which he termed the shadow.

We may become unduly anxious or irritated when in an environment or around a person that in some way reminds us of repressed aspects of our self. If a person has rejected his or her own sex drive, for example, that person may feel irrational fear or anger around an overtly sexual individual. The shadow may appear as a person in one's dreams, usually as an individual of the same sex.

Of all the archetypes, the shadow is the most powerful and potentially the most dangerous. It represents everything about ourselves that we fear and despise.

The meaning of 46 + 2:

According to Melchezedek, our planet is covered with geometrically constructed 'morpho genetic grids'. These grids extend from about 60 feet under the Earth's surface to about 60 miles above the Earth, arranged in geometric patterns (see 'Sacred Geometry'). Each species has its own grid, which supports life, and connects the consciousness of its particular species. Before any species can come into existance or make an evolutionary step, a new grid must be completed. When a species becomes extinct, that particular species' grid dissoves.

A new grid was completed in 1989 - the 'christ-consciousness' grid. This grid will allow humans to evolve into our next version. We'll develop two additional chromosomes (which are really 'geometrical images' designed to resonate with our specific grid) for a total or 46 + 2.

The main change will be a shift to the "unity consciousness". Every cell in your body has its own consciousness and memory. You, the higher being that occupies your body, make the millions of different consciousnesses in your body work together as one being. How does this relate to this grid? Think of yourself as a cell and the grid as the higher being. We will still have individual consciousness, but will be united in the form of a higher being in order to work as one entity."

 

[fadingessence]

Well, tool's lateralus came out 2001; i dont see ANY tool influence whatsoever in Damnation and Deliverance in the guitars. maybe you are on crack?

Do you need the link to the Opeth site to figure it out? That was from peter's bio.

 

[KielbasaSausage]

i dont care if tool is listed in peters "what i have recently listened to" list - it doesnt mean that opeth is influenced by tool. mike writes the structures of opeths music and contributes the most to the band.

My point was many people take Tool to casually, just assume they're accessible because the band sells large quantities of albums, and miss the deeper musical/lyrical side.

no, they are accessible because they are accessible. Im pretty sure you can agree with me that there are radio friendly tool songs. now ive never put tool aside because they are radio friendly - in fact, i used to like tool and other types of this music back when i listened to angsty teen stuff. argue all you want about how tool is not angsty, i dont care - its my opinion.

If Tool doesn't make you THINK then I question what other bands you listen to, or if you even understand those that you do.

i dont know what you are trying to argue about, but dont fool yourself; any and every type of music makes you think. sorry to inform you, but tool is not the only band in the world that can accomplish this; tool is not immaculate in any way.

The whole mass of text below refers to the ideas behind the lyrics to 46+2, read it if you're curious, if you don't care then spare me the crap about a long post.

id rather read a book. im glad that youve found a really poetic band, but if i want to read something that makes me think, books will do a much better job. if i want to hear music, its music that i will listen to.

 

[KielbasaSausage]

ok, i read the info on the Jungian theory (which of course is not a theory by definition, but an idea) and it seems that you take this stuff for truth. i know its hip and cool to be all philosophical, but dont take any of this stuff seriously. philosophy is man's poor attempt at trying to prove (which is another nonsense word) that we are smart and have some divine reason for living.

 

[Jock La Crotch]

The whole mass of text below refers to the ideas behind the lyrics to 46+2, read it if you're curious, if you don't care then spare me the crap about a long post.

Your long post sucks. All your posting is philosophy. No proven fact, only theory. Someones opinion. Save it for the fanboys. Oh yeah, there is no comparison between Opeth and Tool. I think the name Tool says it all.

 

[fadingessence]

I never claimed they were "poetic", Opeth is poetic.

I would agree for some reason they have radio songs, but i've never understood why they have such a following. Most of their fans are morons, most of them like the angsty teen stuff, whatever. Thats not what I find in them, certainly not in Lateralus.

I also did not claim they were the only band to make me think, only that they do. GYBE makes me think more then Tool does, as does Agalloch and A Silver Mt Zion, but that doesn't dimish the fact that their music and lyrics are thought provoking, especially in the context of all the connections they have.

And if you would rather read a book well...where do you think a large part of that post came from? It wasn't fan opinion really, it was discernable connections between things people have written (namely Carl Jung, and if you ever want to read something that makes you think there is a book called the Denial of Death that has much to do with him) and a single song by Tool.

I have no problem with your opinion, what I get out of music is my own and I don't expect anything else out of others, but trying to somehow make me out to be confused and less intelligent because I find so much depth in a band was a bit silly

If you havn't figured out by now that music can inspire thought and emotion just as much as a book, that it is something beyond simple aesthetics, then this argument is null though. Obviously books are a greater cerebral excercise in the obvious sense, but music works in different ways to a similar effect for me.

 

[fadingessence]

Your long post sucks. All your posting is philosophy. No proven fact, only theory. Someones opinion. Save it for the fanboys. Oh yeah, there is no comparison between Opeth and Tool. I think the name Tool says it all.

i'm suppose to care what someone named jock la crotch with a sig about how much he likes bourbon thinks?

something tells me you don't have many proven facts to throw around anyway.

 

[eye]

I can never understand this. Tool is good, but they are not as amazing as people claim. The music is not that nuanced and the lyrics are not that thought provoking or intricate. Just because they're about complex (and pretty strange) theories, as fadingessence pointed out at great length doesn’t mean they themselves are so great. I have listened to lateralus many, many times, and I’m sure I “get it”, but “it” just isn’t that amazing, unless you do lots and lots of acid. Tool’s a very good band. They are not, in my opinion, as good as Opeth. Tool go more for more of an atmospheric and ambient kind of effect whereas Opeth is progressive and focused on musical ability (though no argument about Tool’s drumming obviously).

 

[KielbasaSausage]

look, nowhere have i said that books were a better form of thought provoking material - in fact i think that music is better, but that is just me. you are the one confusing literature with music - why else would you bring up the philosophical arguments that tool use in their music?
also, i dont think that you are silly because you find so much depth in this band; i just find it silly that you think tool is so special compared to other bands. its your opinion, and although i accept that, its silly to argue it factual.

 

[Jock La Crotch]

i'm suppose to care what someone named jock la crotch with a sig about how much he likes bourbon thinks?

something tells me you don't have many proven facts to throw around anyway.

Should I be offended? One fact is I don't spew mindless dribble. If I have an opinion then I tell you. If you can't take it then you need some serious thought on growing up. Oh, sorry I'm not as "Dark" or "Gothic" as you are...but someday....maybe if I try real hard...I can be as cool as you.

 

[fadingessence]

one fact is that you made an opinion that people with whom you do not agree spew mindless dribble. And if you have an opinion, I can tell you I think it's wrong, and if you can't take that you need to grow up. Now you've made me "dark and gothic" too, where did that come from? You know...nevermind...Kielbasa and I were trying to have a decent conversation here.


Back to the other topic. I just don't necessarily seperate philosophical thought from music because it may come in a different form. I believe you can make arguments based on references from the music, that lyrics + music as a whole can create an idea fully formed enough to have some deeper thought over. Obviously this isn't like reading Satre, Nietzsche or Pynchon, you just can't really make a logical philosophical argument through music, so I definitly agree with what you're getting at. But if you take philosophy to mean a set of ideas you have about the world, what different things mean to you, then I think music can have a huge part in that. In that respect, because of all the connections that can be made and pure thought process involved in finding meaning to their songs, I think Tool applies very well. I did not mean to give the impression I hold them above other bands, I certainly enjoy and listen to Opeth far more, as with Agalloch, GYBE, Mars Volta, well its a long list, but it doesn't dimish the contribution i've found Tool to have in that respect or that I think Lateralus is a singularly unique and amazing piece of world. Actually, with the exception of Aenima, a lot of their other work doesn't do it for me either.

 

[antipopular]

You may laugh now......but I have a feeling that Opeth will be touring with tool.

When i interviewed Peter last sunday, he said that the one band that he is really interested in touring with is Tool....and that he loves tool..

 

[Caelum Adustum]

You may laugh now......but I have a feeling that Opeth will be touring with tool.

When i interviewed Peter last sunday, he said that the one band that he is really interested in touring with is Tool....and that he loves tool..

I don't like Tool at all, but I would still prefer that over Devildriver.

(Will we ever stop bitching about Devildriver?)

 

[Gin_from_the_bottle]

i used to love tool. now they are meh to me... opeth orule though