The Official Movie Thread
- Thread starter Manic Ferocity
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CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
I knew the feminist would not only be triggered by a mild anti-feminist opinion but would also claim to see no feminist agenda in a film while simultaneously calling for more feminist agendas in film. 
And the irony is, if you got what you wanted via this:
There'd still be some idiot like this to deny you even got what you wanted:
Because with ideologues it's never enough until it becomes unadulterated propaganda with entertainment and canon becoming secondary if not completely irrelevant.
And the irony is, if you got what you wanted via this:
There'd still be some idiot like this to deny you even got what you wanted:
Because with ideologues it's never enough until it becomes unadulterated propaganda with entertainment and canon becoming secondary if not completely irrelevant.
rms
Active Member
I like how you talk about Star Wars like this is the 2nd film of the universe/franchise
Einherjar86
Active Member
I knew the feminist would not only be triggered by a mild anti-feminist opinion but would also claim to see no feminist agenda in a film while simultaneously calling for more feminist agendas in film.
I knew the femino-skeptic (my word, patent pending) would be triggered by me co-opting his ilk's favorite word.
But I don't want to argue about this. It's dumb, and derails the thread.In other news, I finally saw Logan the other night, which is now my favorite X-Men movie; although I'm not sure it really counts as an X-Men movie. More like a movie set in the X-Men universe.
I don't follow. Not sure why it looks that way to you.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
Just like religious people, subvert subvert subvert.
It's never enough and if you notice it, point it out and/or complain to any degree it's you who has the problem. To top it off, it's never any kind of interesting or sophisticated feminist angle employed, it's always some low-brow pop feminism rawr womenz & men are dumb hurdur horseshit.
Basically just further Hollywood virtue-signalling with zero substance, pushed on us by rich neo-aristocrats who are complicate in the Hollywood culture of sexual abuse while they also preach to us with their feminism. That's why most of these movies won't stand the test of time imo, they're empty while at the same time being politically preachy.
Triggered is my ilk's favourite word? I don't even know what that means. Doesn't it originally come from whatever lingo surrounds PTSD and mental health? Wasn't it inserted into pop-politics by the whole 'trigger warning' thing? I'm nothing to do with either of those things.
Cool movie.
It's never enough and if you notice it, point it out and/or complain to any degree it's you who has the problem. To top it off, it's never any kind of interesting or sophisticated feminist angle employed, it's always some low-brow pop feminism rawr womenz & men are dumb hurdur horseshit.
Basically just further Hollywood virtue-signalling with zero substance, pushed on us by rich neo-aristocrats who are complicate in the Hollywood culture of sexual abuse while they also preach to us with their feminism. That's why most of these movies won't stand the test of time imo, they're empty while at the same time being politically preachy.
Triggered is my ilk's favourite word? I don't even know what that means. Doesn't it originally come from whatever lingo surrounds PTSD and mental health? Wasn't it inserted into pop-politics by the whole 'trigger warning' thing? I'm nothing to do with either of those things.
Cool movie.
rms
Active Member
the original quote suggests that since Star Wars is a fantasy universe, women can be more powerful than me. Yet we have 6 films that don't depict this possibility. The only way your claim makes any sense is if the rules/power structures in Star Wars are fluid/un predictable where everything changes within one generation
Einherjar86
Active Member
There's actually an interesting point in here about the consistency of fantasy universes. If Star Wars is a fantasy, then why can't women all of the sudden be depicted in this way? A fantasy universe need not abide by the same rules or expectations as ours.
But that's really beside the point. All movies reflect the ideological urgency of their times, in some way or another. I personally feel that art (especially speculative fiction) shouldn't suppress its political context, whether in the name of diegetic consistency or for some other reason, but should reflect and explore it. That's something I enjoy about literature and film.
To take an extreme example, if someone were to make a sequel to Birth of a Nation today, it wouldn't be appropriate or productive to convey the original diegetic world and ideological/political sentiment of that film. It would be appropriate, however, to take Nate Parker's route and put out a politically relevant variation on the original work.
CiG
Approximately Infinite Universe
It's already well established that there are powerful women in the Star Wars universe, feminism however due to its inclination to embody revenge politics always seems to create powerful women at the expense of men. Rey couldn't be powerful in her own right via some character development, she had to be powerful from the get-go at the expense of Fin's clumsy 'dumb male' trope and more controversially Kylo Ren, the first film's arch-antagonist who is supposed to be so ruthless that he murdered all of Luke Skywalker's students.
Dak
mentat
Like with most politicized words, "reflect" or "explore" mean nothing of the sort. Artwork provides a sermon, not a Socratic dialogue or a quest.
Vegard Pompey
ALLY TO GOOD, NIGHTMARE TO YOU
crimsonfloyd
Active Member
"Actual men"? it seems like your frustration is that there weren't enough guys in the movie that fit your prototypical gender expectation for being a "man". I don't really want to get into if the characters in the original films were "real men" or not because that's a bullshit classification that I'm not interested in appropriating. But most of the characters you mentioned did have development (I never said it had to be the hero's journey... that's only one means of development).
Obi-Wan- Doesn't really have development in the OT, since by that point, he's a fully refined master, but does in the prequels. Starts as a brash and arrogant padowan, but after seeing Qui Gon Jinn die, has to grow up too fast. Is a struggling Master who ultimately fails his pupil and needs to defeat him in battle and head into exile. By A New Hope, he's fully developed into the old wise master, so I'll grant in that movie he doesn't have development, but by that point he doesn't need it.
Yoda- Same as Obi Wan, his development happens in the prequels. Starts as an arrogant leader of the Jedi who fails to see the catastrophe brewing right under his nose. He utterly fails and see the Jedi Order destroyed right before his eyes.
Vader- Just looking at the OT he goes from being a pure "big bad" in ANH to showing a little more nuance in ESB and ton in ROTJ, when he reveals that he's broken and feels as if he is beyond the point of no return, despite the growing conflict within him. Obviously, it ends with his redemption and self-sacrifice.
Han- Goes from a selfish smuggler to a general in a rebellion who puts his friends before himself. Wavers on this throughout ANH and ESB. Reaches resolution on this issue by ROTJ. Learns to truly love Leia by the end of the OT and is even willing to let her go if it's what truly will make her happy.
Tarkin, Emperor Palpatine- These two are pretty much the "big bad." Just like Snoke and most other "big bads" they didn't really experience development.
General Veers, Wedge, Boba Fett, etc.- These are bit characters.
If you found this entire movie to be a soapbox for feminism because there were a number of female characters in important roles and because the male characters experienced developments (all of which were logical for said characters and where they were coming into the film), then yes, you probably have some psychological issues surrounding gender that you need to deal with (it's sounding more and more like that with your "real men" talk). Had you specifically isolated it to the relationship between Poe and Holdo, I would at least see where you're coming from, but the fact that you think it was blunt and distasteful just because women had 1. positions of power and 2. influenced men reveals a fundamentally sexist ideology on your part. I don't expect you to acknowledge this, as most people hate being called out on this shit, but it is what it is.
no country for old wainds
Active Member
- Nov 23, 2002
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this is how i feel too. i don't mind ideology as long as it's nuanced and organically embedded in the narrative, but the superficial agenda-pushing you generally get in hollywood is an insult to everybody's intelligence, regardless of the specifics of that agenda.
rms
Active Member
yes, which is why your original comment is cowardice at best. no idea why you attempted to act like that was a reasonable assertion to Star Wars
The Ozzman
Melted by feels
Draehl
Lurker
I'm done. Whether or not you agree whether the definition "a real man" is appropriate or not we both know exactly the character attributes it represents and Disney made a clear choice in showing they don't want those types of traditional men in their film. It stuck out like a sore thumb and rather than just have strong women (good!) they had to so bluntly play the contrast game with unstable/weak/useless men and that contrast is so drastic it's not only politically annoying but more importantly aesthetically disruptive to the film.
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crimsonfloyd
Active Member
Yeah repeating the exact same points that were unconvincing and unsubstantiated the first time was totally convincing this time.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Sorry, I wanted to handle your comment graciously; but then you go and call my comment "cowardice." I have no idea what that means, and I really don't care.Dak, sharpshooter of all that is aesthetic, artistic, or narrative, strikes again.
I'd advise you adjust that comment to some art provides a sermon. Claiming that all artworks are sermons is blatantly absurd to anyone who studies art.
I think it's an opinion, not an argument. I'm saying that I prefer films that acknowledge their cultural, political, and/or ideological context. I'm not saying that escapist or non-critical films aren't worth watching, or even that I don't enjoy such films.
I would argue that all films are already political to some degree (what Fred Jameson calls the political unconscious of all aesthetic works), but obviously some films acknowledge this more than others.
It's a personal position that I don't mind excessive feminism in contemporary films. I just find it disheartening that so many people get turned off by it. But whatever, it is what it is.
Dak
mentat
How about a compromise with most art? Certainly the overwhelming majority put out in the modern and post-modern era because it has been determined that that is the purpose of art. I see this second hand because no art my wife actually wants to make is acceptable to art school teachers because "it isn't starting or participating in a dialogue" and other such bullshit.
Einherjar86
Active Member
Draehl
Lurker
I can 100% respect that. At least you own up to the fact that it's occurring. I'd rather have an honest, healthy difference of opinion than bother with the post modernist games of fucking around with definitions/truth/etc. that comes up so often with the topic of media bias. Deny deny deny all the while knowing that it is happening. I say stand tall with what you believe, admit there is a bias, and explain WHY it need to be there to influence culture to create a better society. We might disagree, but I tip my hat to you, sir.
