slipknot?

[Neurotic]

lol. Metal is a vast genre. Metal is understood to incorporate all of the subgenres. I mean, when metallica came out, it could have been argued that they weren't metal. What the hell did this thrash metal have to do with metal? It was obviously mixed with punk, therefore not pure. Wheres the falsetto gone to? Not only that, but it lacked the straightforwardness and simplicity of early heavy metal. Obviously, nobody in their right minds would say that metallica isn't metal. As metal gets older, it grows. The fact is that there is no such thing as characteristics that define metal. Metal is an essence. It is defined not by whether the guitar player plays this or that, but rather by the aesthetics and the emotions it invokes. This is the reason people listen to metal, not because of tremolo picking and blastbeats. This is why people classify things. They want music that is like this, so they classify bands that are like this together. It is a question of essence, not a tally of how many traits that they have. I only heard the debut once, but it was definatly metal. Do people headbang to it? Yes. To people get drunk and thrash to it? Yes. Do people associate it with satan and anger? Yes. Does slipknot have influence from undisputably metal bands? Yes.

i have to disagree, sure there are caracteristics that make metal what is it.
its not the reason why people listen to metal of course, but the caracteristics are there.

sure metal has envolved, you say that is the feelings that they invoke in people. sure it is, but to invoke them, you got ways of doing it. music theory exists for making that process more easy.

example, if you want to sound evil probably you are going to use the tritone (like in the song black sabbath like i said earlier) for instance. you can name a endless list of metal songs that use that. from the 70's till today. it has been there from the begginning.

you mentioned metallica, metallica and those palm muted riffs, black sabbath had plenty of those, you can hear them in almost every subgenre of metal.

this are just two classic examples, i could go further analising all subgenres of metal and all it's caracteristics.

of course it's not because of those caracteristics that people listen to metal, most fans don't even know they exist(unless they are musicians), like in any style of music.
Like you said, is the feeling they got from the music.
but there is always a foundation to every style of music. the elements are there, people may not know it but they are there.

 

[PowerMetal1984]

Slipknot is not true metal. They are Nu Metal which is the most hated sub genre by most true metalheads. If you grew up listening to Nirvana, Korn, and Limp Bizkit, you might like slipknot. If you grew up listening to Maiden, Priest, Slayer, Helloween, etc., you probably won't be turned on by their music.

 

[Satanstoenail]

Slipknot is not true metal. They are Nu Metal which is the most hated sub genre by most true metalheads. If you grew up listening to Nirvana, Korn, and Limp Bizkit, you might like slipknot. If you grew up listening to Maiden, Priest, Slayer, Helloween, etc., you probably won't be turned on by their music.

 

[Gorod]

The more I gave it a though Neurotic truly backed up his words with the Slipknot case. Hence I admit my defeat, and will from now on just call Slipknot un-metal (yes. it's spelled the way I want it to be).

Meshuggah I already said I was wrong about.

I'm only posting in this thread because it's the only thread I have interest in. I can discuss the music I like in other forums.

 

[TylerTheNuke]

i have to disagree, sure there are caracteristics that make metal what is it.
its not the reason why people listen to metal of course, but the caracteristics are there.

sure metal has envolved, you say that is the feelings that they invoke in people. sure it is, but to invoke them, you got ways of doing it. music theory exists for making that process more easy.

example, if you want to sound evil probably you are going to use the tritone (like in the song black sabbath like i said earlier) for instance. you can name a endless list of metal songs that use that. from the 70's till today. it has been there from the begginning.

you mentioned metallica, metallica and those palm muted riffs, black sabbath had plenty of those, you can hear them in almost every subgenre of metal.

this are just two classic examples, i could go further analising all subgenres of metal and all it's caracteristics.

of course it's not because of those caracteristics that people listen to metal, most fans don't even know they exist(unless they are musicians), like in any style of music.
Like you said, is the feeling they got from the music.
but there is always a foundation to every style of music. the elements are there, people may not know it but they are there.

Well, I have 5 mins here, so I'll be quick here. I bet this will be one of those things that we won't be able to decide ever. However, the question here here is whether or not something that has none of the specific characteristics of metal can still be metal. I mean, there is no disputing that most metal has certain characteristics, because most bands build on the work of previous artists. THe fact about metal evolving is that the characteristics change, but the essence remains the same. My conclusion from that premise is that metal is defined by an essence rather then a set of characteristics. Sure, metal loves tritomes, but does not using them make you less metal? Same with palm miting or screaming. THere are very very general characteristics of metal, like it has to have riffs, for example, but otherwise it comes down to how it feels. The music theory standpoint: there are several ways to achieve an certain effect. The effect doesn't necessairily need be a tritome, but it could also be some effect pedel, a dissonant trill, ect. Thats all for now.

 

[Neurotic]

sure, there are several ways to achieve an effect, those were just 2 examples. of course you don't have to use the tritone to be metal.
like i said thank god metal has evolved.
many bands don't use some of the stuff that was first used in those first metal bands for sure.
like you said, no falseto's in death metal for instance.
but each subgenre of metal has it's set of caracteristics that's why doom metal has it's sound, death metal , black , power etc
of course that many bands mix those but its all under the of big umbrella of metal.
those general caracteristics you mention are of course metal. you got to haver riffs of course.
i agree that it's the essence, what i say it's that behind the essence there's a foundation.
in music there is always a explanation.

 

[TylerTheNuke]

hmm, so I guess I'm not seeing your point too clearly. Unless we are pretty much in agreement already. Behind the essence there is a foundation, you say. I guess I would add that what the foundation is doesn't matter if the essence is the same. Hence you can't define a genre by its characteristics but rather its essence, and there are certain characteristics that are used frequently in a genre that can, but don't have to, make up this essence. Are we already in agreement?

 

[Neurotic]

i think you can't separate essence from it's caracteristics. it's a part of the essence if you can't understand what i mean.

 

[TylerTheNuke]

OK, I understand what you are saying now. Obviously certian characteristics are part of the essence like riffs. You can't get the feel of a riff without actually using a riff, I supposse. But don't you think that to get the essence of a heavy metal genre, there are a variety of ways, or even an infinitude of ways to achieve that essence? In other words, it is useless to try to define a genre by its characteristics, or at least is is useless to try to exclusivly define a genre by its characteristics, because someone somewhere will find a way to achieve the essence using different characteristics, and therefore will belong in the genre even though they don't use typical characteristics, and therefore rendering a list of characteristics as a flexible sort of definition that is of no use to us in terms of exclusivity. Holy crap, that is a long sentence. Anyways, I guess a list of common characteristics is useful as examples to define something. I just don't think you can exclude something from metal or one of its subgenres based on its characteristics.

 

[Neurotic]

OK, I understand what you are saying now. Obviously certian characteristics are part of the essence like riffs. You can't get the feel of a riff without actually using a riff, I supposse. But don't you think that to get the essence of a heavy metal genre, there are a variety of ways, or even an infinitude of ways to achieve that essence? In other words, it is useless to try to define a genre by its characteristics, or at least is is useless to try to exclusivly define a genre by its characteristics, because someone somewhere will find a way to achieve the essence using different characteristics, and therefore will belong in the genre even though they don't use typical characteristics, and therefore rendering a list of characteristics as a flexible sort of definition that is of no use to us in terms of exclusivity. Holy crap, that is a long sentence. Anyways, I guess a list of common characteristics is useful as examples to define something. I just don't think you can exclude something from metal or one of its subgenres based on its characteristics.

There is always a link to some characteristic of metal in the sound of those supposed bands. that's why you don't exclude them. that's why most of the time when you hear a new band you go, this riff reminds me of this band, it's a mix of this band and the other, etc etc

 

[TylerTheNuke]

Okay, point taken. But many band have a lot of metal characteristics and aren't metal, and many bands have fewer metal characteristics but are more metal. I suppose that all metal bands have some metal characteristics, but that isn't what makes them metal so much.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

Because the singer raps and since when do you have turntables in metal?It's a horrible abomination of rap and metal.

The fact that their fans proudly refer to themselves as "maggots" just shows how truly dense they are .

 

[Blacken the angel]

Sometimes I feel like Slipknot is a group of clowns with ugly masks.

 

[Dee Snarl]

THEY HAVE A DJ.

Is there a real metal band with a DJ? I'm thinking no.

 

[Blacken the angel]

THEY HAVE A DJ.

Is there a real metal band with a DJ? I'm thinking no.

yeah... and about the nine clowns, is that really metal

 

[Satanstoenail]

This thread will never die.

 

[Blacken the angel]

Why don't we just consider Slipknot to be rock and end this discussion ?

 

[TylerTheNuke]

Because the singer raps and since when do you have turntables in metal?It's a horrible abomination of rap and metal.

See what I mean neurotic? Case in point of why metal is better defined by its essence rather then its characteristics. Squishy, you don't need to respond to this.

 

[Neurotic]

See what I mean neurotic? Case in point of why metal is better defined by its essence rather then its characteristics. Squishy, you don't need to respond to this.

that was not my point, many bands have influences and characteristics that are not metal in their sound. cynic, atheist, opeth, etc etc

But they also have metal characteristics in their sound, or else they wouldn't be metal, that is what i'm saying from the beginning.

 

[Satanstoenail]

that was not my point, many bands have influences and characteristics that are not metal in their sound. cynic, atheist, opeth, etc etc

But they also have metal characteristics in their sound, or else they wouldn't be metal, that is what i'm saying from the beginning.

Agreed. This is why I think AC/DC aren't metal. There are no metal characteristics in their sound. It's pure blues influenced rock. Slipknot on the other hand, have many metal elements in their sound. Even if they do happen to suck.